I'm considering the purchase of a Fender twin for my ProIII, and I'm trying to choose between a new 65 reissue and the real thing. I realize that this has been discussed somewhat in the past, mostly the difference between the reissue and "The Twin" I have not heard good things about "the twin", but it seems that the reissue is a good sounding amp.
My question is, considering tone, reliability, price, etc, what is the better buy- a new reissue or a real blackface twin. One advantage a buying a new one at guitar center is that I can try it out, and if I don't like it I can return within 30 days of purchase. I won't have this luxury with a used amp, but then again maybe I wouldn't need it.
What do you fellas think?
Ty
New Twin or Old Twin- Opinions?
Moderator: Shoshanah Marohn
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Tyler Macy
- Posts: 96
- Joined: 16 Oct 2000 12:01 am
- Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Ty -
There was a pretty extensive thread on the subject just before the holidays. A gentleman in Florida was in your shoes, and was able to buy a "real" BF Twin Reverb for somewhere around $1200. If you find a USED Re-issue Twin, then I suppose you'll only have to pay half of that. But the old ones are out there, if you have the time to shop, and you might do even better than $1200. One other thing to consider is this: the oldest Silver-Face Twin Reverbs are the exact same thing as the Black-Face on the inside. Like a '68 - the ones with the aluminum trim around the grille cloth. Those are less expensive, yet. I own a '68, bud, and it can give you goosebumps.
Rob
There was a pretty extensive thread on the subject just before the holidays. A gentleman in Florida was in your shoes, and was able to buy a "real" BF Twin Reverb for somewhere around $1200. If you find a USED Re-issue Twin, then I suppose you'll only have to pay half of that. But the old ones are out there, if you have the time to shop, and you might do even better than $1200. One other thing to consider is this: the oldest Silver-Face Twin Reverbs are the exact same thing as the Black-Face on the inside. Like a '68 - the ones with the aluminum trim around the grille cloth. Those are less expensive, yet. I own a '68, bud, and it can give you goosebumps.
Rob
Well, actually....if you wanna get picky,
once you get into the '68-9 silver faced
amps, the coupling (or "tone") capacitors
are different. They feed the audio
signal thru each stage of the pre-amp
& power amp sections of the amp.
Some amps, like the Super Reverb are not the same at all. Even though the
tube chart says model AB-763, they're really
AB-568 models. Some other smaller amps didn't start changing till after 1970.
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<img src=http://www.geocities.com/ganzpics/Cowboy.gif><font face=loosiescript color=blue size=6><b>Keep Steelin' !!!
once you get into the '68-9 silver faced
amps, the coupling (or "tone") capacitors
are different. They feed the audio
signal thru each stage of the pre-amp
& power amp sections of the amp.
Some amps, like the Super Reverb are not the same at all. Even though the
tube chart says model AB-763, they're really
AB-568 models. Some other smaller amps didn't start changing till after 1970.
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<img src=http://www.geocities.com/ganzpics/Cowboy.gif><font face=loosiescript color=blue size=6><b>Keep Steelin' !!!
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Jerry Erickson
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Michael ODriscoll
- Posts: 52
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- Location: Waunakee, Wisconsin USA
Over three years ago now, I bought a used '65 TR RI for standard guitar. It's a good-to-great tube amp, but if you really are interested in better tone add in an additional $100-300 USD for better tubes. I put Svetlana 6L6's in the power section, and that helped tons.
It's also a very sweet sounding classic type of steel amp, lots of silky highs and rounded lows. Use it almost exclusively as my steel amp during the last year over my Peavey LTD.
Hope this helps.
Mike
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::: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused. :::
It's also a very sweet sounding classic type of steel amp, lots of silky highs and rounded lows. Use it almost exclusively as my steel amp during the last year over my Peavey LTD.
Hope this helps.
Mike
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::: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused. :::
It's really a bit tricky when your talking
about Twin Reverbs with the aluminum trim
around the grill. They were made that way
only in '68 & '69. The only way to
really tell what you've got is by the datecodes on the pots inside & the date codes
on the speakers. If it's really a '68, then
chances are there ain't alot of "blackfacing"
to be done...unless you're gonna switch out
all the brown colored tone caps for the blue
& white ones (if you can find originals).
Once you get into the '69's...that's another
story. The bias pot is wired up different,
the plate resistors on the 12AT7 phase inverter tube are different, there's .002
capacitors from the input grids on the 6L6's
to ground that have to be clipped out as well
as one on the reverb pedal socket. The thing that's tough to change on later '69's & 70's is that the power transformer feeds a lower voltage to the 6L6's (405 instead of 465) which changes the tone of the amp. You'd hafta get an original transformer or a replacement that boosts those voltages back up.....But enough of this technical chatterin'!!!
<img src=http://www.geocities.com/ganzpics/Teeth.gif>
about Twin Reverbs with the aluminum trim
around the grill. They were made that way
only in '68 & '69. The only way to
really tell what you've got is by the datecodes on the pots inside & the date codes
on the speakers. If it's really a '68, then
chances are there ain't alot of "blackfacing"
to be done...unless you're gonna switch out
all the brown colored tone caps for the blue
& white ones (if you can find originals).
Once you get into the '69's...that's another
story. The bias pot is wired up different,
the plate resistors on the 12AT7 phase inverter tube are different, there's .002
capacitors from the input grids on the 6L6's
to ground that have to be clipped out as well
as one on the reverb pedal socket. The thing that's tough to change on later '69's & 70's is that the power transformer feeds a lower voltage to the 6L6's (405 instead of 465) which changes the tone of the amp. You'd hafta get an original transformer or a replacement that boosts those voltages back up.....But enough of this technical chatterin'!!!
<img src=http://www.geocities.com/ganzpics/Teeth.gif>
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Bob Hoffnar
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Bob Metzger
- Posts: 569
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- Location: Waltham (Boston), MA, USA
I would think that a '65 reissue Twin Reverb would be far preferable for steel guitar use than "The Twin", aka 'Evil Twin', essentially a channel switching amp built for guitar. However, if you're considering an original blackface Twin Reverb, how about also considering a Silverface Twin Reverb, which can usually be had somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3 of the cost of the blackface version. These amps, and any other used amp you may buy as well, should be examined by a compentent tech. He can look it over, tell you what you've got, diagnose its exact condition and perform any needed repairs (it is used!). Earlier silverfaces are generally more sought after than the later silverfaces. However, there is a later silverface Twin Reverb that is 135 watts and has Ultra linear taps on the output transformer and should be a great steel guitar amp. This amp has the distinction of being hated by electric guitarists and these amps can be had most cheaply. You can identify this amp by the lack of a choke and its 4 amp fuse on the back panel. While you're at it, if you should run into a Vibrosonic Reverb, basically a Twin with a 15" speaker, you really should check that out. My opinion of the R.I. Twin is that it is harsher sounding than the original blackface Twin Reverbs. The R.I. is a circuit board amp, as opposed to point-to-point wiring, like the originals, and most R.I. Fenders that I've heard have been harsher and brighter than the original amps that they were designed to copy.
Bob
P.S. The only way to tell what you've got is to examine the circuit and the type (quality) of parts used; the datecodes will only yield limited information about what month/year the amp was manufactured after. Fender had a myriad of manufacturing quirks that date codes cannot allow for. Remember, the circuit is what produces the sound.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bob Metzger on 23 January 2001 at 03:03 PM.]</p></FONT>
Bob
P.S. The only way to tell what you've got is to examine the circuit and the type (quality) of parts used; the datecodes will only yield limited information about what month/year the amp was manufactured after. Fender had a myriad of manufacturing quirks that date codes cannot allow for. Remember, the circuit is what produces the sound.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bob Metzger on 23 January 2001 at 03:03 PM.]</p></FONT>
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Jim McNealon
- Posts: 48
- Joined: 27 Sep 2000 12:01 am
- Location: Tampa, FL, usa
I'm the fellow in Florida that got the 67' Blackface w/JBL D120's. Thanks for the turn on Robert.
The amp arrived UPS. When I opened the box I found the baffle board was broken horizontally right across the center. Everything was still in place, except when I lifted the amp out, the baffleboard formed a V. I guess UPS dropped the amp & the weight of the JBL's broke the board.
I plugged in the amp. To my suprise & delight it worked! Even with the broken board & the torn speakers it blew away any of the new Fenders that I had been trying out, including the Reissues.
I'm having a new board made & the speakers are being reconed with the original factory parts. The amp was insured by UPS so the repair costs should be taken care of.
I'll give you the final report once its all reassembled.
My vote is go for the real thing if you can find it.....Jim
The amp arrived UPS. When I opened the box I found the baffle board was broken horizontally right across the center. Everything was still in place, except when I lifted the amp out, the baffleboard formed a V. I guess UPS dropped the amp & the weight of the JBL's broke the board.
I plugged in the amp. To my suprise & delight it worked! Even with the broken board & the torn speakers it blew away any of the new Fenders that I had been trying out, including the Reissues.
I'm having a new board made & the speakers are being reconed with the original factory parts. The amp was insured by UPS so the repair costs should be taken care of.
I'll give you the final report once its all reassembled.
My vote is go for the real thing if you can find it.....Jim
Guitar Player magazine did a review of the '65 RI Twin several years ago. They compared it to an original as part of the review. Their opinion was that one thing that made a big difference was the speakers. The original naturally had speakers that were about 30 years old. They swapped speakers between amps and reported that the new amp seemed to soften up a little, and the old one seemed to stiffen up. Their review was in general pretty good as I recall.
Guitar player does get it wrong much of the time. I played through Bruce Bouton's Vibrosonic 'custom' (very similar to a twin RI) and a silverface Twin with 2X12" JBLs and there was no question. The twin had the sound, and it wasn't just the speakers.
Although the two together sounded pretty cool.
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www.tyacktunes.com
Although the two together sounded pretty cool.
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www.tyacktunes.com
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Danny Hullihen
- Posts: 2415
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- Location: Harrison, Michigan
- Contact:
Hey guys, here's some food for thought... If you like the sound of the old balck face twins, the check out the Peavey Ranger 212. It really does sound like the old black face twins, only more powerful, and some nice features not found on the Fender amps. Ask Mike Brown for more details about this.
Bob is absolutely right regarding the input jacks. Very hard to fix, and just as hard to get the parts.
Bob is absolutely right regarding the input jacks. Very hard to fix, and just as hard to get the parts.
To Jim in Florida:
You're a bigger man than I am, Jim. I think if that amp had arrived at my place that way I would have been so crestfallen I wouldn't have been able to even plug it in. I may have needed some medication, even. Were those old baffle boards pine? I could see them becoming dried out and brittle. The maple will last the rest of our lives, though. Some UPS guy probably waved off offers of help to prove what a brute he was, got that carton in his arms and had a lower back spasm! And that was all she wrote: 80+ pounds came crashing to the ground, probably off the back of a truck. What pros.
Rob
You're a bigger man than I am, Jim. I think if that amp had arrived at my place that way I would have been so crestfallen I wouldn't have been able to even plug it in. I may have needed some medication, even. Were those old baffle boards pine? I could see them becoming dried out and brittle. The maple will last the rest of our lives, though. Some UPS guy probably waved off offers of help to prove what a brute he was, got that carton in his arms and had a lower back spasm! And that was all she wrote: 80+ pounds came crashing to the ground, probably off the back of a truck. What pros.
Rob
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Greg Derksen
- Posts: 426
- Joined: 16 Aug 1999 12:01 am
- Location: Alberta, Canada
I would opt for the older one for this
reason alone, its easier and cheaper to work
on a point to point wired amp than a RI
Circuit board ( Cost Saving So-Called 65 Twin).
There is an interesting article that was printed by the gentlemen who makes Victorio
Amps, he said even if the Reisue stuff
sounds as good , the lifespan of the new Re-
isues is not there! Look how many old Fender
amps are still working!
As far as them sounding as good, in my opinion same speaker in both, the P to P
amps always have more movement or complexity
in there tone, plus I think more silkyness
in the Highs,
Look for an older one even if its a little rough, my friend just for an example, picked
up a 68 Deluxe Reverb that is maybe one of
the sweetest amps I have ever played, For
what would be 200.00 US, the tech put another
35.00 into it and its unbelievable, We had it
next to a brand new RI , no comparison! Greg
reason alone, its easier and cheaper to work
on a point to point wired amp than a RI
Circuit board ( Cost Saving So-Called 65 Twin).
There is an interesting article that was printed by the gentlemen who makes Victorio
Amps, he said even if the Reisue stuff
sounds as good , the lifespan of the new Re-
isues is not there! Look how many old Fender
amps are still working!
As far as them sounding as good, in my opinion same speaker in both, the P to P
amps always have more movement or complexity
in there tone, plus I think more silkyness
in the Highs,
Look for an older one even if its a little rough, my friend just for an example, picked
up a 68 Deluxe Reverb that is maybe one of
the sweetest amps I have ever played, For
what would be 200.00 US, the tech put another
35.00 into it and its unbelievable, We had it
next to a brand new RI , no comparison! Greg
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Donny Hinson
- Posts: 21192
- Joined: 16 Feb 1999 1:01 am
- Location: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
Bob is right about the plastic jacks that solder directly to the PWB. I have one Fender, and one Peavey that's like that (both only a few years old).
I will NEVER again buy an amp with a plastic PWB jack! I don't care who makes it, how good it sounds, or how cheap it is.
If that's the best they can do these days, I'll buy old stuff, thank you.
I will NEVER again buy an amp with a plastic PWB jack! I don't care who makes it, how good it sounds, or how cheap it is.
If that's the best they can do these days, I'll buy old stuff, thank you.
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J D Sauser
- Moderator
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- Location: Wellington, Florida
- Contact:
I owned and still own a bunch of amps... (which doesn't mean that I know what I'm talking about... But here's my experience:
If it's the "black-face sound" you want (really want), get a real (vintage) black face Twin (if you can or are willing to afford it). They are easy to maintain (few parts in there) and there are plenty of technicians that do well on them. And if one day you decide to get rid of it... you'll get your money back or more (if you bought "smart").
On the other hand, you may want to buy a new re-issue amp, for about the same amount of money... and well yes it carries warranty... but nope, they just don't have thatsound ... Still they're good amps... but when you'll sell it, how much are you going to get?
Or, you buy a silver face for much less (don't get a "Master-Volume"-one). Maybe you'll like it (but still feel that sting, wondering what that black face would taste like)... or maybe you won't like it at all. Either way you could still decide to sell it and you'll get your money back (+/-) and take it from there to a black face or move on to something completely diferent.
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The future belongs to culture.
jaydee@bellsouth.net
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by J D Sauser on 24 January 2001 at 05:53 PM.]</p></FONT>
If it's the "black-face sound" you want (really want), get a real (vintage) black face Twin (if you can or are willing to afford it). They are easy to maintain (few parts in there) and there are plenty of technicians that do well on them. And if one day you decide to get rid of it... you'll get your money back or more (if you bought "smart").
On the other hand, you may want to buy a new re-issue amp, for about the same amount of money... and well yes it carries warranty... but nope, they just don't have thatsound ... Still they're good amps... but when you'll sell it, how much are you going to get?
Or, you buy a silver face for much less (don't get a "Master-Volume"-one). Maybe you'll like it (but still feel that sting, wondering what that black face would taste like)... or maybe you won't like it at all. Either way you could still decide to sell it and you'll get your money back (+/-) and take it from there to a black face or move on to something completely diferent.
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The future belongs to culture.
jaydee@bellsouth.net<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by J D Sauser on 24 January 2001 at 05:53 PM.]</p></FONT>
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Bill Terry
- Posts: 2786
- Joined: 29 Apr 1999 12:01 am
- Location: Bastrop, TX
The earlier SF Twins seem to be a pretty good investment right now. In fact, all the SF Fenders from the 70's seem to be going up in price as the BF amps are getting harder to find (and afford). Most folks don't want to pay $1500-$2500 bucks for one of the boutique, point to point wired amps so the SF amps, even needing some repair, are good value. Just my opinion..... 
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bterry.home.netcom.com
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bterry.home.netcom.com