The Steel Guitar Forum

I began this in another post, but I wanted to get your ideas in a post of its own.

I think 1/4" phone plugs are terrible for all applications and should be OUTLAWED. They were cool for telephone switchboards in the 1940s, but why the music industry has not grown out of the phone jack is beyond me. Here are the issues with the phone plug:

<U>DISADVANTAGES</U>
<UL>

[*]Phone plugs don't make good connection. Only tangential contact is make at one point. Good connectors have multi point spring contacts.

[*] Retention - they can easily be jerked out

[*]They short as you plug them in.

[*]The signal connection is is naked on the guitar end allowing the user to touch it to our bodies and instruments. This creates a horrible hum into your amp.

[*]None of them have a robust cable strain relief.

[*]There is never any consistiency with dissimilar metals, causing galvanic corrosion. Some plugs are brass, some jacks are chrome...you name it.

[*]It is not mechanically robust. The contact area is exposed.

[*]There are huge and waste panel space on equipment that have jacks.

[*]Some equipment uses phone jacks soldered into circuit boards with no bushing support. Cable stress breaks the solder joint on the board.
[/list]

<U>ADVANTAGES</U>
<UL>
[*]It is an OK shielding concept
[*]If your run across stage real fast and run out of cord with a guitar, one end will come out and you won't fall down
[/list]


We evolved with XLRs for microphones. The XLR fixes all those problems above. Good speaker connectors have emerged such as the Speakon, which are very pouplar and are have great performance and reliability.

George L has made us a great field serviceable phone plug product and probably made it as good as it could be done, but its the concept that I have a problem with.

We have evolved from:

8 track tapes
Phonographs
Beta video
VHS video (now with DVD)
Dot matrix printers

<B><FONT COLOR=red SIZE=+2>Why do we use phone plugs in Y2K?</FONT>

------------------
Terry Downs
http://nightshift.net
terry@nightshift.net <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Terry Downs on 29 November 2000 at 10:02 PM.]</p></FONT>

Terry, I agree with you. There are many problems associated with 1/4 inch guitar jacks. You need "more" than one conductor and a shield to have a balanced system. Plus there is the issue of no shielding at the connection points. The XLR connectors are much better. The use of better connection methods does not guarantee reduction in noise. It usually does help.
Terry, I'm afraid you are fighting 60 plus years of tradition. Back when the car first came on the market people made fun of it. A lot of people didn't think they need a car when they had a horse?
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Keith Hilton on 29 November 2000 at 10:17 PM.]</p></FONT>

Being an electronics tech for many years, I agree that the 1/4" phone plug/jack is not the ultimate connector.

However, are we going to throw away all the millions of pieces of equipment that use 1/4" jacks/plugs?? The XLR connector was developed for balanced lines and is a better (but physically bigger) connector, however I used to repair a lot of XLR connectors, when I did amp repair in Nashville. In fact I repaired more XLR connectors than I did 1/4" phone plugs - although maybe the people were repairing the 1/4" themselves.

There are obviously currently produced connectors that are better and more expensive than the 1/4". Cost is a big factor in production of products, for the general consumer. There are the "price is no object" items, but even they have to be compatible with the mass produced items.

It would take an industry wide effort and agreement to come up with a new standard and start implementing it. It's a possiblity but probably not realistically.

Home stereo equipment has standardized on the "RCA" phone plug/jack, which is worse than the 1/4" system but no one is in a hurry to change it, either.

RF Equipment is no different. The BNC connector does not offer that much surface contact, although it does lock in place, or the current TV coax connectors which use the solid center conducter direct contact, in my opinion is a poor connector.

Items have come about or developed, usually in the infancy of product development or whatever is currently available that will work is used, and they seem to wind up being the "standard". Once the "standard" has been established it's next to impossible to establish a new standard.

There are phone plugs and there are PHONE PLUGS.
Terry, over the years there have been 1/4" phone plugs developed which overcome most all of your objections.
In the early '50's, Mallory made a phone plug with an excellent cord lock.
There are plugs made which automatically mute when you remove them from the jack.
Some companies have made guitar cords using military specification plugs which are very rugged.
Over the past 55 years of wiring plugs for sound systems, musical instruments, television broadcast and microwave, I've had to deal with all the problems you cite. However, there are solutions for them.
Unfortunately, many companies use inferior, usually imported, plugs and jacks. Many of these do not mate well.
Switchcraft has an excellent line of jacks and plugs and I use them where possible.
Last week, I came across some "made in china"
jacks and they were very bad,made of light weight metal with a weak spring contact. Good service is impossible with this equipment. Yet, many companies use them 'cause they are cheap...and if the product is made overseas, you can bet they will not have american made jacks in them.
I agree with all of Jack's comments, too many years of defacto standardization.
Of course you could customize your equipment and add the connectors of your choice.
Blake

Terry:
You might consider the Switchcraft Model 172 or 181 Phone plug. These little known plugs are all metal, have a good strain relief built-in, and have a shorting feature which uses a little button in front which keeps the cable shorted until it is fully seated. This permits the cable to be inserted into the guitar without turning the gain of the amp down first. Go to www.switchcraft.com to see the spec sheets on these plugs.
Few outlets carry these plugs, I got mine a couple of years ago from California Switch and Signal, 1010 Sandhill Ave., Carson, CA 90746, phone 310/632-4300. They are not inexpensive, but they have been very satisfactory.
-Dave Kocher

The only 1/4 jacks we will use in our pedals are "Switchcraft". Since we started using Switchcraft in our products,we have never had a failure in a jack. To me that is worth the slight difference in cost. We have used other brands made overseas. They cost less, but the quality is not there, and the failure rate is higher.

One other thing to consider with the "Off shore" produced jacks and plugs. They are made to metric dimensions not the standard US inch measurements. They are "not exactly" the same size, let alone the inferior component quality.

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Max Laine on 30 November 2000 at 01:25 PM.]</p></FONT>

Not all "offshore" products are cxxx...
You should try Neutrik connectors, made in Austria (or in Germany, somebody help!). Here's Neutrik USA website: http://www.neutrikusa.com/

The standard 1/4" phone plugs are used for a lot of reasons.

They are inexpensive
They are quite rugged (no tiny pins to break off, or inserts to crack like the XLRs)
They are widely available
They are very reliable (if you buy Switchcraft, or another high-quality Mfr.)
They are VERY easy to install/repair
They require no hardware (like those tiny screws on XLR connectors)
They are easy to use (ever try to plug in an XLR in the dark?)

Most of the problems I see are not with the plugs at all, but with the CHEAP, piece-of-junk, plastic-bodied PWB jacks that most manufacturers are now using!!! In order to keep costs at a minimum, they use these instead of a hand-wired "quality" jack. (Quite a ridiculous thing to do in an over $500, top of the line amplifier!)

I condemn both Peavey and Fender (the industry leaders!) for using these crappy, cheap, flimsy jacks!

(Sorry, I just had to get that off my chest!)

Max, I was referring to the 1/4" jacks/plugs that are made in Asia.

Good dialog!!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>
However, are we going to throw away all the millions of pieces of equipment that use 1/4"
jacks/plugs?? </SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jack, well stated. But it seems like it could be a gradual transition. Newer systems could evolve using the new connector. It worked with Speakon.

The 1/4 phone plug is more difficult to adapt when dealing with mixer consoles because of the large number of connectors involved. I have also wondered why more mixer consoles did not use multipin connectors. The first time I ever saw that was while working a show with Merle Haggard back when Celia Lord and Asa Kelly were the sound engineers. They had just acquired some military multi-pin connectors and modified their huge console so that one connector hooked up the snake and one connector hooked up the effects racks. I was impressed. (I was impressed with Celia too! Anybody know what happened to her?)

Once again, I don't want to imply that there are no quality manufacturers of phone plugs. I use Switchcraft when I can. I just don't think the transition to a better connector would be as hard to swallow as we think.

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Terry Downs on 30 November 2000 at 06:08 PM.]</p></FONT>

Don't hold your breath......

Those 1/4 inch and RCA jacks are going to be around for a long time.

I do agree that these plastic jacks that are soldered to the PCB's are a pain in the a$$ tho. A lot of my repairs have been where the jack or one connection of it breaks loose of the PCB. (also I have had many of the plastic houseings to break) As many of these jacks have 3 wire connectors in them and are physically positioned to such that you cannot replace it with a metal one.

Too bad we have to accept these lesser products because good stuff adds to the price.

It ain't gonna get no better......

"When someone comes up with a better mousetrap........................."

If you know of a better Jack than the 1/4" please tell me. And don't tell me the LXR is the answer. I, like Jack, have had all kinds of horror stories with thes sapsuckers when I used to be a technician for RCA.

I simply do NOT know of anything better overall than a quality built 1/4" jack system. I am NOT saying there is not one. I just do not know what it is.

One thing is for sure, Peavey proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that it "aint" them danged ole "molex" connectors.

One thing must be considered. And that is the many many many times a guitar chord is plugged into and removed in a players normal day to day "giggin".

I repeat "when a better mousetrap is......."

carl

If you could examine some original-design type "Tip-Ring-Sleeve", 1/4 inch phone plugs of the type that was used in telephone switchboards and with the patch bays in telephone "central offices", you would notice that the derivative of this type connector which is commonly used in consumer and pro sound equipment differs physically from them. The original type uses different angles on the tip and ring sections, for reliable and fast, easy connections/disconnections to the awitchboard and patch bay jacks.
Construction-wise, their provisions for connecting the cable conductors was by means of special lugs crimped on special wire, which has flexibility cords built in. The lugs screwed to the connectors, and the overall jackets of the cables used expensive braided nylon fabric. Those cables were very rugged, and well made to last a very long time in constant use.
The problems each of you posted about are simply due to the comprimises that found their way into the design of the "1/4 inch phone plug" for consumer use, to lower costs and facilitate their being wired and used by end users without the special tooling and skills.
IMHO no phone connectors other than those made by Switchcraft should be considered for reliable results, and it's fortunate that the company, which I think is owned by Raytheon now, is still in business and still making excellent products.
I do part time work building and repairing equipment for a sound & lighting contractor, and see all sorts of problems with all sorts of connectors, some of which are very expensive and difficult to wire up. When working in the aerospace field, I've seen $12,000 inter-stage connectors that require literally weeks to replace, in flight hardware such as the Titan IV booster...exotic, expensive "mil-spec" connectors, which nevertheless failed for some reason or another.
A well made 1/4" plug or jack such as a Switchcraft still works & lasts pretty well for the price you pay for it, compared to a lot of other designs that could be used on musical gear.

Let me expound on what Rich so poignantly pointed out.

The old cord board "switchboards" that the telephone companies used for sooo many years did in fact have "tip-ring and sleeve" cord, plugs and jacks.

Now a powerful, but little known fact is just how the telephone companies (mostly all owned by AT&T at the time) operated from a purely "busines" standpoint.

It must be remembered that there was NO desire whatsoever to ever have to repair ANYthing. NOT at all like just about everything else ever made. The automobile industry is a prime example of service being an integral part of their overall business. In other words there desire is FOR you to have to have your car serviced. That service department is NOT a non-profit department!!

I digress. Scuze me. Back to the story of the cord board. I know they don't exist any more, but think if you will of the number of times a given plug was plugged into and out of a given jack in just one day on one of those boards. Think about it.

What the telephone company did NOT need was constant service. Now of course they did need service ocassionally. But NO where near what would be "norm" in ANY other industy.

So AT&T knowing this full well, even went so far as to create a company just for the R & D on "NON obsolescence" YES, they did NOT want to have to service ANYthing. So they did not dicard ANYthing before it went back to Western Electric to find out just what caused "that" specific failure.

And when the root cause was discovered, they had one order of business. Stop it cold in its tracks for the future. And that is the way the entire company operated.

When I first got into the Telephone business in 1970 (working with RCA), I could not believe the quality of EVERYthing the telephone companies used. I had never seen anything like it in my life.

Those cords and plugs and jacks as used through out there domain were truly designed for "100 year" life cycle. That phrase permeated the entire Telephone company. Incidently, that is NO longer the case since deregulation. It is sad to day. Very sad indeed. IMHO the ONLY thing deregulation has ever done, is to permit "good ole boys" to invade quality companies and raise the price. Think about it. This coming from an arch conservative, no less. But facts are facts!

My point being, if there had been a better way to plug something in and remove it often, you can bet your last dollar Western Electric would have long since come up with it.

So the 1/4" phone (guess where the "phone" came from) plug and jack is here for a long time I predict.

God bless you all,

carl

Let me add a little to the WECO (Western Electric) phone plugs and jacks. Although the cords were reliable (and I used the same ones in the military) they did suffer bad contact in the jack because of "dirt" and TELCO had a lot of "dirty normal thru" jack problems on circuits. The plugs required periodic cleaning to maintain proper contact. Jacks also required periodic cleaning and contact burnishing and later spraying of contact cleaner (for the normal thru contacts).

Although Western Electric did make ultra reliable products, they were still prone to failures. I worked with "Long Lines - private lines" (AT&T's designation for full period data circuits) and the old WECO 829 analog channel interface units were prone to many problems. I had many circuit outages that were charged to "bad carrier channel", etc.

However, back to the original post and my original answer. The 1/4" phone jack/plug, for the application it is being used for in the musical equipment industry is more than adequate and I don't see the industry standard changing any time soon.

This is some great information from a lot of experience. I think that a way to summarize this is:

If I invented the ULTIMATE musical instrument connector, and made it the industry standard that all devices and instruments used, manufacturers would strive to cut corners by reducing cost and lowering the standard of the connector to a product that has similar problems we discussed here.

I am spoiled by the military connectors I have been envolved with for the last two decades. I guess it all boils down to money.