Swing 8ths against straight 8ths

Billy Wilson · From: El Cerrito, California, USA

I was figuring out the Hal Rugg intro to Loretta's Don't Come Home a Drinkin'. I'm thinkin that the tune itself is "swung" but Hal's lick is done in "straight eights" Am I close to reality here? I've run into this issue on other tunes, especially Ralph Mooney's Buck and Wynn tunes. Is this common in CW or have I got it all wrong?

Skip Edwards · From: LA,CA

Alot of Chuck Berry's old tunes have that shuffle against straight 4's thing going on. Drums play a slight shuffle and the rhythm gtr is straight.
When it works, it works...but when it doesn't, it really doesn't....

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

....Then there's 'Jailhouse Rock', with Scotty Moore playing muted straight '8s' against a slight swing from the rhythm section.

RR

Chip Fossa · From: Monson, MA, USA (deceased)

You guys got to try and explain this better.

I'm lost. Try to really explain it. ie- do
not use the old music terms, but maybe, some kinda thump-ka-thump feel.

Thanks- no one on this forum, at least most, when you are trying to explain rhythm, can put any kind of beat in their head[s], unless they are superior graduate music students.

Try to talk and relate your concept[s] in the real world - whatever it takes.

Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

Would the Buck Owens "swinging on the hats" groove apply to this thread? I love that!! Few drummers can pull this one off.

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

As Skip pointed out, Chuck Berry did alot of it. Elvis also. Beatles also. Its an interesting rythm, straight eigths against swing eigths.

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 22 December 2006 at 07:25 PM.]

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

Much of the mystic of the early Rock-a-Billy and rock music is a result of smashing together swing and straight 8ths. You had some mucisicans who were versed in big band music which was all swing and others in the band who where coming from country music and gospel music with its' more straighter rhythm patterns. When they got together and recorded there was this groove that came about.

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

We used to call that eights flirting with a shuffle feel a "Chuck-a-billy" groove. When it's done by a rhythm section that really understands it,it's an amazing throbbing groove. NRBQ can really cop it with grand authority on tunes like "I got a rocket in my pocket" and "Don't she look good". I've played in a few situations where the shuffle part of the feel was passed around to different instruments from measure to measure the way the Harlem Globetrotters pass around a basketball. And that's a glorious environment to solo over - everybody weaving in and out of an implied shuffle.What drives me nuts is to play in a bar band that doesn't get it,will never get and plays Chuck Berry songs in straight eights and can't hear the difference. When you try to explain or demonstrate it,their eyes just glaze over.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Chip - think of "straight eighths" as a series of eighth notes of exactly even time intervals. A pair of straight eight notes would have time intervals 1:1.

But pairs of swung notes have a larger time interval ratio - say 1.5:1 for moderate swing or even 2:1 or more for a hard swing feel or shuffle.

I think rockabilly is the perfect example, as has been mentioned. The rhythm section swings hard, but the soloist plays perfect straight eighth notes or triplet feel over it. A pair of either notes occupies the same time interval, but the individual notes hit at different times. It's a powerful effect, when done right - to my tastes at least - but I love and have played a lot of rockabilly.

A famous swing musician (may have been Ellington, but I'm not sure) said that if you can't feel swing, then there's no real way to explain - practically - how to do it. I sort of agree, even though I just tried.

Edited to add - I view rockabilly as basically a stripped-down swing band with guitar, bass, drums, and maybe piano, sax, etc. To me, Brian Setzer's evolution from rockabilly to swing was perfectly natural.

[This message was edited by Dave Mudgett on 22 December 2006 at 09:51 PM.]

[This message was edited by Dave Mudgett on 22 December 2006 at 09:54 PM.]

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

I swing on parts behind a pretty straight ryhthm guitar.

Generally works well,
but occasional confuses our young drummer.
He can decide which of us to join when.
He'll get there I am sure.
Gotta give him some early Ray Price to listen to.

Skip Edwards · From: LA,CA

Yeah Chris...the Buck hi-hat shuffle is the same swingin' thing....or should I call it the Willie Cantu hat shuffle?
And yeah, it's a tuff one. I only know one guy who can really do it right...and that would be Steve Duncan, who used to play with the Desert Rose Band.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Chip -

Straight: 'da,da,da,da,da,da,da,da'
Swung: 'Da,di,da,di,da,di,da,di'

Listen to Elvis' 'Jailhouse Rock' - at the '4' chord (chorus, if you like), the guitar is playing the boogie riff 'straight' against the swung rhythm.

I have to disagree with your assessment of 'most' Forum members, however - I think of music as my 'real world', and a grasp of simple theory is vital. That's a whole 'nother discussion, however...

RR

Chip Fossa · From: Monson, MA, USA (deceased)

I only added "forum members" just to spark more debate. I understand swing, eighths, and rockabilly. Dave and Roger have explained it better.

Listening to the prescribed songs is the key. It's easier to hear it, than to read about it, I guess.

Thanks

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

I think Pam Tillis did this on a more recent release of "I'll love you forever if I want to". I'd like to hear is somebody knows of a recent example.

A real trick is to play every other beat with a "dot".

An old drummer around here used to play a middle beat where you couldn't tell.

Another one bounced his eighth notes on all fast Str 8s. Shuffle Buck..

I've always thought it was annoying as heck.

EJL

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

Didn't Keith Richards make sort of a whole career out of switching back and forth? Like, the first two chords of "Brown Sugar" are straight time, then Charlie swung it for six beats following, then back to the straight chopping beat? It's not quite just slowing down and speeding up, but more shifting time around.... a few people made a career out of stealing Keith Richards' licks, too.*

*(After HE stole them from Chuck, oh it's a never-ending road, etc.)

Eddie Lange · From: Nashville, TN

Actually Billy, Dont Come Home A Drinkin is eights all the way around, I have had to correct a few drummers about that before.

Gene Jones · From: Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)

*

[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 23 December 2006 at 10:47 AM.]

Billy Wilson · From: El Cerrito, California, USA

Thanks Eddie. Will do same for drummer.

Alvin Blaine · From: Picture Rocks, Arizona, USA

Delbert McClinton's band is one of the best out there, right now, for playing straights against a shuffle or vice versa.

Another example is Vince Gill's "The Next Big Thing" song. Half the band is playin' a shuffle while the rest are playing straight. Of course the song is written by "Big" Al Anderson of NRBQ, and as stated above they were pretty handy with this sort of groove.

[This message was edited by Alvin Blaine on 23 December 2006 at 11:56 AM.]

Andy Greatrix · From: Edmonton Alberta

Also, listen to Charlie Pride's version of "Kiss an Angel Good Morning".
When a band cops that grove,
it feels great and is fun to do.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Isn't that (swing 8ths against straight 8ths) pretty much the essence of rock-a-billy music?

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee