The Steel Guitar Forum

apologies if this have been covered here recently, but i see lap tunings, C6 in particular that call, for example, for a G on the fourth string, or a G on top. my conclusion is that the fourth string G is raised a fourth above the usual D and the G on top is a step and a half above the usual E. Do you guys re-guage your strings to get those strings that high without breaking? is there a list of guages that someone could publish? thanks in advance for any helpful comments.

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Unlike most regular guitar players, PSG players usually try to gauge their strings for the best sound for their type of playing. Along with the thought of breakage of course. Rather than use very small gauges with the strings wound very loosely to permit wild "bends" etc.

Here is the most prime example I know of:

The third string on the E9th tuning is very prone to breakage. Because it is a very small gauge string and it is being pulled tighter than it really should, players have resorted to various gauges since its inception when Ralph Mooney first used it in the late 50's I believe it was.

I have seen it anywhere from its original .009 to a .013. Nowdays, most use a .011. And most I believe will tell you they would love it if it had a fatter sound.

Only one player I know of who can make it sound as wide as the Pennsylvannia turnpike. the rest of us suffer along and do the best we can.

As far as a chart of gauges, it varies among players.

Here is a standard by a few companies making strings for the E9th:

F# .012
D# .015
G# .011
E .014
B .018
G# .022
F# .026W
E .030W
D .036W
B .042W

But even here, many players subsitute. As an example some players will use a .022w for the 6th string. And some will use a .017 for the 5th string. ETC.

But generally they will fall somewhere close to the above gauges.

I don't remember the C6th standard. Other posters probably will give you these.

God bless you in your quest,

carl

Go to http://www.juststrings.com and choose Guitar. From the Guitar menu, choose either Hawaiian Lap Steel or Non Pedal Lap for a listing of strings in the Am7 or C6 tuning.


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Brad's Page of Steel
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars

brad - that's great. am i correct though, that the fourth string G is a fourth above the normal D in concert tuning, and not below?

You are correct sir.

PLAIN STEEL STRING DIAMETER VERSUS TENSION:

Using information about plain steel strings found on the D'Addario website (Steel Strings) the tension per cross sectional area can be calculated.

The website data gives string diameters together with tension, for various pitches and for a 25.5 inch scale length.

This uses the data given for E-1st and B-2nd guitar strings, all plain (unwound) steel.

The calculation is: Take the string diameter, halve it (to get the radius), square that and multiply by pi (3.14159) to get cross-sectional area. Divide that area into the tension. Note: The website gives the diameter in inches after the letter L, for example, a PL010 string is 0.010 inch in diameter.

Here are the results:
E-1st (329.63 Hertz)
0.008" diameter, 10.4lbs: 206,901 lbs/square inch
0.0085" diameter 11.7lbs: 206,186 lbs/square inch
0.009" diameter 13.1lbs: 205,919 lbs/square inch
0.010" diameter 16.2lbs: 206,264 lbs/square inch
0.0105" diameter 17.9lbs: 206,721 lbs/square inch
0.011" diameter 19.6lbs: 206,244 lbs/square inch
0.012" diameter 23.3lbs: 206,017 lbs/square inch
0.013" diameter 27.4lbs: 206,431 lbs/square inch

B-2nd (246.94 Hertz)
0.010" diameter 9.1lbs: 115,685 lbs/square inch
0.0105" diameter 10.0lbs: 115,487 lbs/square inch
0.011" diameter 11.0lbs: 115,749 lbs/square inch
0.013" diameter 15.4lbs: 116,023 lbs/square inch
0.0135" diameter 16.6lbs: 115,971 lbs/square inch
0.014" diameter 17.8lbs: 115,630 lbs/square inch
0.016" diameter 23.3lbs: 115,884 lbs/square inch
0.017" diameter 26.3lbs: 115,869 lbs/square inch

Notice a pattern here: For a certain note at a certain scale length, the tension per cross-sectional area is the same <u>no matter what the gauge of the string is</u>!

The averages of the above tensions per cross-sectional area are:
For E-1st, 206,335 lbs/square inch.
For B-2nd, 115,810 lbs/square inch.

A second pattern emerges in tension per cross-sectional area versus pitch (frequency of the note). Comparing the average E-1st and B-2nd values above yields the following:

Tension per cross-sectional area ratio:
206,335/115,810 = 1.782

Frequency ratio:
329.63 Hertz/246.94 Hertz = 1.335.

But, frequency ratio squared is
(329.63/246.94)^2 = 1.782

So, Frequency ratio squared is equal to tension per cross-sectional area ratio!

The effect of that is a string tuned to a higher pitch experiences greatly increased tension, proportional to the square of the frequency. So, an upper limit to how high a note a string can play without breaking is soon reached. Now, a 12-string fretted guitar usually has a high G string. That high G is 392.00 Hertz. Using what we know, that string (on the same 25.5 inch scale length) will have a tension per cross sectional area of:

[(392.00/329.63)^2] x 206,335 lbs/square inch = 1.414 x 206,335 lbs/square inch = 291,797 lbs/square inch.

(Using D'Addario website data confirms this: a 0.008" string tuned up to G has 14.7 lbs of tension, giving 292,447 lbs/square inch.)

From experience, trying to take a guitar string up to A above that G can't be done. It will break every time. If it could be achieved, the A string would be at 367,642 lbs/square inch. So, the breaking strength of a plain steel guitar string is about 300,000 to 330,000 lbs/square inch.

A high G string is in extreme tension. A high G# string is right on the edge of breaking.

Further, it is now obvious that the tendency of a string to break when tuned to high G or G# on a steel guitar is not dependent upon the gauge of the string. Gauge may have a secondary effect on tendency to break, such as how much effect there is on the string from flaws like nicks and bends and how carefully it is constructed for the high-note application.
 
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Richard Vogh on 16 April 2001 at 04:43 PM.]</p></FONT>

thanks for your responses. still trying to figure out richard's but i'm getting closer. thanks richard for taking the time to drill down into the subject.

I don't know about all that, but I use a 13 for high G on a short scale fender, never broke one.
Mike