What is jazz?

RMckee · From: Broken Arrow, OK

What is jazz? Who defines any genre of music? Who determines the boundaries and decides what players get to stay in and which are expelled? I read with interest the article by Pat Metheny concerning Kenny G. I had read it several months ago on All About Jazz and I have given several of Metheny’s points a bit of consideration. I will admit that my wife enjoys Kenny G to a much greater extent than I do; however, who installed Metheny as final authority? I would consider Metheny a legend and I enjoy hearing him play; however, I do not appreciate his music as much as I do several other guitarists such as Tal Farlow, Mundell Lowe, Grant Green, Django Reinhardt, Frank Vignola as well as several others. I will concede that my sole Metheny project is "As Falls Witchita,So Falls Witchita Falls" and therefore I cannot state that I have listened to enough of his music to postulate a definitive statement concerning his skill, ability, or taste – which would only be subjective ramblings by me and as such would be entirely valueless. I am aware that based upon my education as compared to Metheny’s as well as my career as compared to his, it could be quickly ascertained that I have no business making any statement concerning either his or any of these musician’s relative abilities – or lack thereof. The case could also be made after hearing me play that I am not an accomplished musician therefore I haven’t a right to express any opinion – either pro or con. However, who decides what notes are correct in a piece of music and which are ‘clams’? Should Roy Nichols’ offbeat solos be rightly considered ‘clams’ since they fall outside the normal realms of country guitar music as played by his peers at that particular point in time? Igor Stravinsky is considered by many to have created racket for tone-deaf masses; however, I had to study his music as something worthy of appreciation. If my sole listening pleasure was J. S. Bach then much of Stravinsky’s music would be ‘clams’. What defines a genre of music? Do the instruments? The players? The notes? I have a cd of Joe Pass playing Hank Williams songs with Roy Clark. Since the music is Hank Williams does that mean that Joe Pass was a ‘country’ guitarist for this cd? What about his cd of Christmas tunes? I love to hear Maurice Anderson play and I have a cd of him performing sacred/gospel tunes. Does that mean that Maurice is a sacred steel guitarist? Or that he was at that point in time? Jethro Burns and Bill Monroe both played the mandolin. Is Jethro bluegrass? Is Bill Monroe swing? Since the mandolin was actually used years previously in classical music are they both classical musicians?

Or, does it even matter???? I must have had too much time on my hands today….

Bryan Bradfield · From: Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada.

I don't think that Pat's bottom line was the quality of Kenny's playing. Pat could probably make judgements on any number of jazz musicians' qualtiy of music. I concluded that Pat's displeasure was based on Kenny doing a duet with the late Louis Armstrong, which Pat took to be an incredibly arrogant act.

Terry Edwards · From: Florida... livin' on spongecake...

Pat did say that Kg played out of tune and was limited to a few pentatonic blues licks! I'm guessing that Pat didn't like the quality of his playing!!

What is Jazz? I've never heard anyone adequately describe it with words. Listen to Charlie Parker and try to describe it.

A wise man on this very forum once said that playing jazz and being a jazz musician are not the same thing.

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

Or to quote Louis Armstrong: "If you have to ask, you'll never know"

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

"I'm the decider."
-- G.W. Bush

[This message was edited by Jim Cohen on 16 October 2006 at 06:45 PM.]

Mike Shefrin · Posted 16 Oct 2006 6:24 pm

I'm not gonna say it!

David Doggett · Posted 16 Oct 2006 6:25 pm

Some people believe in a simple world where everything is clear cut and well defined - good and evil, black and white, commercial and uncommercial, country and not-country, jazz and not-jazz, etc. Such people have a strong ability for delusion and denial, or else they live a very frustrated, anxiety filled life - like Monk in the TV show. While most music genres have a central core of musical pieces, style and instrumentation that most music critics, scholars, industry, musicians and the public agree on, there is nothing to keep the edges from blending together with other genres. The music police are not very successful. Think of the poor music store clerk, trying to put the records and CDs in the right bins. I’ve run across some real howlers. On the other hand I’ve gone looking for something without a clue which section to look in first – say The Harmonicats (not even sure how to spell it…even less sure why I was looking for it). Just because something is bland and commercial and Matheny doesn’t like it, that doesn’t mean it’s not jazz. A while back we were discussing the definition of country-rock. But we were just trying to come up with something sensible for a working definition to facilitate communication, fully aware there would be some things unaccounted for. We weren’t trying to lay down a law of the universe. I don’t think musical genre definitions will ever be an exact science – sorry, Pat. Was The Modern Jazz Quartet improvising on Bach jazz or classical? Who cares, it was sublime (to me). What if the Meat Puppets thrashed out some Bach – would that be music or sacrilegious? Is Ornette Coleman jazz or random noise? I like it when I’m in the mood for it, and it irritates the heck out of me if I’m not. Kenny G is not so bad when I’m drifting off to sleep, but to sit wide awake and listen to him in a concert – if I’m gonna be struck by a meteor and killed, please let it be nearer the beginning of the concert than the end. So my answer to “what is jazz?” is a firm “it depends.” So shoot me, I’m a relativist. You could be guilty of murder – but if I’m at a Kenny G concert I wouldn’t press charges on grounds of justified euthanasia.

Tracy Sheehan · From: Fort Worth, Texas, USA

The definition that has always made sense to we was what a great guitar player once told me.He said jazz is only staying in the chord struture but not playing the melody.He said you can play jazz on a 2 chord country song by not playing the melody.I read a long time ago somewhere that back around 1900 many musicians were trying to find out where the word jazz came from.
In he old days when i played fiddle,fiddle players called it hokem.We were playing jazz and didn't even know it,not that it mattered. For what it is worth and that ain't much,the guitar player that told me this was offered a Job with Doc Severson on the Old Johnny Carson show.

[This message was edited by Tracy Sheehan on 16 October 2006 at 11:42 PM.]

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

What if I just don't know the melody? Does that count as jazz too?

Mike Shefrin · Posted 17 Oct 2006 4:30 am

What's a melody?

[This message was edited by Mike Shefrin on 17 October 2006 at 07:42 AM.]

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

I like to think of it as music extrapolated from the music of the so called Jazz Age.
1900 to 1929.

W.C, Handy blues and Scott Joplin Robert Lamb ragtime
Through King Oliver, Kid Orey and Satchmo.
Into the big band era.

Most music of the time was jazz based.
Even the pop standards.

After that it really stretched it's legs
and widened it's scope and the aruegments about what it was.

Since then pop music has narrowed itself drastically.
But I don't blame rock n roll for that.
But marketing twits.

And jazz has entrenched itself,
in many juxtapositions
and tribes of thought.

Terry Edwards · From: Florida... livin' on spongecake...

Jazz is actually an acronym used to describe a technique and style of playing involving...

Juxtaposin'
And
Zig
Zaggin'

...around a melody.

I do it all the time and for some it's an acceptable way to survive!

Terry

Shane Reilly · From: Melbourne, Australia

"Jazz is a Feeling" Duke Ellington.But I don't think it matters.
Shane.

CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

Jazz is not dead
it just smells funny
Frank Zappa

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

I missed the Pat M. interview and can't find it here, could someone please point me in the right direction so I can read it. Thanks...

Jazz started out being called Jass if I remember correctly. Drummers would have that spelled on their bass drum head and started covering the J up so it looked like "Ass". "I'm an ass musician" yea, "I play ass music" lol. So someone unknown to me got them to change the spelling to Azz so that wouldn't happen. I learned this from Winton Marsellis.

Jerry Roller · From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA

Randy, if you can think back to when you were playing with us at the "Good Old Boys" show in Barling and all at once you took off on a solo with a line of chords that had no name but could be described with about 5 letters and symbols and you threw the melody right out the window leaving looks of amazement and dropped jaws, that was Jazz. See there is no big secret to it.
Jerry

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

I personally will only bestow the "J" word on music that offers a very in depth and meaningful improv. If the players are just noodling around over some changes or playing pre conceived licks and such then it does not pass my test for the real thing. The jazz greats who have established the bench marks for improv act as sounding boards for my judgement.

Nothing at all wrong with very simple and low impact improv, but I cannot value it as much as say a Coltrane or a Parker or a Montgomery. It just has to be more meaningful than improv that is designed to only sneak up on you and not scare you.

Real jazz improv should let you experience the players search. It is immediate and vulnerable. We as listeners are watching and hearing a very personal moment where a player is struggling to create with no chance of rolling the tape back to fix things, and thinking of things to play while he is actually executing the ideas that have already been thought of. Developing themes, connecting chord subsitutions, dynamics etc.

REAL jazz is easy to define and cull out of just ordinary "jazz" if you as a listener are aware of what to listen for. Very few listeners have that acumen. That is OK in that most players have a better penchant for reaching these ordinary listeners. They react more to the overall groove of the music than to the complexity of the music itself. That's why there are very low key commercial so called "jazz" players who are selling lot's of product and lot's of very deep jazz players playing for $35 a night to anyone who will try to listen.

I'm rambling.

Go listen to "Love Supreme" and that should answer your questions about what jazz is. If it does not then your not to a point in your musical journey that you really need to know.

Bryan Bradfield · From: Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada.

Jazz is never playing the same thing once.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Jazz in the right hands should and can be dangerous.

Always on the edge of falling, or rising,
too far from the harmonization.

And yet it can go totally outside the harmonization,
and return at JUST the right moment,
to make something seemingly illogical,
have a PERFECT logic.

Which often is not apparent till that perfect return.

The danger can be made greater
by a more complex harmonisation,
for it's time and place.
An example would be Giant Steps.

Soloists use a push and pull of time and melodic figure,
to create this great tension and release.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 17 October 2006 at 10:30 AM.]

Michael Barone · From: Downingtown, Pennsylvania

IMHO, Jazz is a language used by musicians who wish to communicate by using it. One’s ability to understand the language (by listening) usually identifies with one’s ability to use it in dialog (musically or spoken). But not always, as there are many who enjoy the avant-garde who don’t know how to play an instrument. Sometimes I think that enthusiasts who don’t play an instrument enjoy jazz as a language art more than we do (as players) since we (unconsciously) listen selectively to phrases, and mathematical concepts, while not listening to and enjoying the language itself for the abstract art form that it is.

Conversely, one can have a diverse vocabulary, but not feel compelled to express it in complex terms at every opportunity. You can play ‘jazz’ and play any room, if you’re confident with your knowledge of the audience’s level of comprehension.

Mike

Bill McCloskey · From: Nanuet, NY

"However, who decides what notes are correct in a piece of music and which are ‘clams’?"

Buddy Rich.

(inside joke for those that get it).

David Doggett · Posted 18 Oct 2006 6:14 am

Chortle, chortle...we get it. Steelers have a neck for "clams" and a fun neck. Guess which one is the jazz neck?

David Doggett · Posted 18 Oct 2006 7:00 am

Jesse, here's the Pat Matheny article (from over in the Smooth Jazz thread): http://www.allaboutjazz.com/articles/arti0900_03.htm

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

Thankyou David...

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