What do you Country Guys think of Jazz?

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 2 Jul 2006 4:35 pm

Well,

Since my George Strait post was so successful, let me ask a follow up question.

You guys (and gals) who identify with country music as your primary identity, i.e. you think of your self as a country music person, your major source of musical enjoyment comes from country music: what do you think of jazz as a musical idiom.

I will be honest here and say that I am a jazz person in that I like all sorts of music, enjoy all sorts of music, can appreciate all sorts of music, but I identify myself as a jazz person. I love jazz more than any other type of music, listen to it more than any other type of music. I imagine that my listening to 1950's prestige recordings of miles davis is similar to you listening to Hank Williams. I can't get enough, and its what I love to listen to if I have a choice.

So where does jazz sit with you. Again, this question is mainly for those who identify most closely with country.

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 2 Jul 2006 5:41 pm

Hank Sr.is one of my hero's,so is Charlie[Bird] Parker,Hank Snow and Charlie Christion,Sil Austin,Stan Getz,Gerry Mulligan,Bill Monroe and Herb Hancock,Coltrane,All the big bands.I guess I love ALL this music because when I was growing up in the 40's there was mostly two kinds of music on the radio,country[they called it hillbilly then]or the big bands or jazz.I have been enjoying both country and jazz for 50 plus years.Always enjoyed tenor and alto players.

Tim Harr · Post by **Tim Harr** » 2 Jul 2006 5:44 pm

I like Jazz..

Jazz is a true American Art Form.

Jazz music has influenced nearly every type of music you listen to today.

Without it...who knows if Blues, Rock n Roll, Western Swing .. would have ever evolved ..

Love it!

Bryan Knox · Post by **Bryan Knox** » 2 Jul 2006 5:51 pm

I personally feel Jazz is a very intricate and complex style of music.

I am not what you could call a follower of Jazz, I do, however, enjoy it and am usually blown away by the improvisational abilities of many jazz musicians.

Neat stuff.

Ben Elder · Post by **Ben Elder** » 2 Jul 2006 6:50 pm

I mostly don't get it, post-1930. I was brought up on it in the house via my parents, whose LPs are almost all jazz. (I didn't know they knew anything about country, like Bob Wills, Roy Acuff and Gene Autry until I started getting into it around age 15.) Jazz is complex, cosmopolitan, atmospheric--and utterly incapable of provoking an emotional reaction from me (except perhaps to change the channel with vigor.) Jazz guitarists (Johnny Smith is a family favorite) are more interesting than wind-impaired players, and watching Buddy Emmons tear it up on the C6th neck is a wonder, but I'd rather listen to sincere if slightly inept country than the best jazz.

Miles Davis (ironically the first phone request to a radio station I ever made--something my Mom put me up to)...yeah, I recognize his tone, but it communicates nothing to me. If you dab some swing guitar changes onto your various forms of country, cool. I'd like to learn a few swing changes to make better use of some archtop guitars, but if I were to live a life devoid of brass and wind instruments, I wouldn't consider it a tragedy. (If I ever get blase about country and bluegrass, the insipid bleating of a flute restores my spirit.)

To me, country's harmony is analogous to primary (bold, definite, unambiguous) colors. Jazz is bland, subtle pastels, compromised by way too much gray and muddy tones. If the analogy is comparing music to language, country is Will Rogers, Garrison Keillor and Ernest Hemingway, while jazz is traumatized homeless schizophrenics braying alien gibberish. As feloniously unhip as it is to say so, Coltrane and Coleman are the sonic equivalent of police beating. Complex and cosmopolitan, but a police beating nonetheless.

If jazz were the only type of music there was, I wouldn't own a single instrument. But thanks to bluegrass, folk, country and diminishingly, classic rock, a hundred-plus aren't enough.[This message was edited by Ben Elder on 02 July 2006 at 07:52 PM.][This message was edited by Ben Elder on 02 July 2006 at 07:54 PM.]

Marlin Smoot · Post by **Marlin Smoot** » 2 Jul 2006 7:05 pm

I guess my Dad's Bob Wills records was my introduction to Jazz.

I still love Jazz on C6 and I keep trying at it.

I heard Jazz was the Blues gone to College.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 2 Jul 2006 7:28 pm

I grew up with many kinds of music in the house,
and a country music lable, and studio
run there too in the 60's.

Not to say I AM country in the sense you may mean above.
Though I did grow up in what was farm country.
19 acres with things growing on it.
ie. working farm next door, and we grew food to eat.

So if playing purist bluegrass, and listening to steel
ladden music from an early age counts in that,
then yes I am part country.

Some people have a entrained need for more harmonic input.
One thing leads to another, you listen gradually to more complex musics,
and each item, lead's to its anticedents AND progeny.

I came back to bluegrass, then older country,
and then classic country, through a route passing;
Rock hard rock, country rock, blues, advanced rock (Yes etc.) on to
fusion jazz, bebop, free jazz, then manouche and country fiddle jazz
to New Grass, and then classic bluegrass and old timey country.
Then back off into irish/ celtic, salsa and european modal ethnic trad styles.

Completely the inverse of most any player I know.

So jazz is just there, as a basis for better soloing,
and the ability to comp/solo over tougher changes.

I can apreciate Doug's version of "Anthropology",
as much as Jerry Douglas playing "The Lights Of Home" for Bela Fleck on Drive.
Each is gorgeous, and lights complimentary bulbs in my head when I hear them.

Some people never listen to any music,
even if it's free in the background of their lives.
It just passes them by unnoticed.

So it's not surprising that some people,
even musicians, are wired only to a certain
level of harmonic and rythmnic complexity.
Very likely from their earliest childhood
musical entrainment from their environment.

If this predisposition to a more laid back structure
is reinforced by nurturing in a simpler form of music,
and NOT the more complex forms, then it's natural
that these patterns are all that is needed for happiness later in life.

I suspect people born into the big band era,
but in the deep country, are more apt to
accept jazz, than those from the deep country,
born during the early rock n roll years.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 02 July 2006 at 08:35 PM.]

scott murray · Post by **scott murray** » 2 Jul 2006 7:47 pm

Jazz and country are probably my two very favorite types of music, and I love the fact that most of the guys who played steel on the classic country stuff are also huge jazz buffs.

Let's hear it for Hank Garland, the only man I know of who played guitar with both Hank Williams AND Charlie Parker. wow.

Thelonious Monk is my true idol. I wish more steel players were into playing his tunes (c'mon Buddy, I know you can do it!

)

I've figured out a few Monk tunes on guitar. Some of them work better in a different key and seem almost tailor-made for 6-string... more open strings, etc.

Are there ANY recordings of Monk tunes on the steel? I can't think of any, but surely someone has at least done 'Round Midnight? Straight No Chaser?

I don't see why not. Many consider him the father of be-bop, and some of his songs seem just as do-able as the Parker tunes, etc.

Ben Elder... a police beating???!!! that's pretty damn harsh. I guess some folk just don't get it. And never will. Too bad for you.[This message was edited by scott murray on 02 July 2006 at 08:53 PM.]

Larry W. Jones · Post by **Larry W. Jones** » 2 Jul 2006 7:56 pm

I don't like jazz. Most of it is what I call a "Free for All", everybody doing their own thing with no harmony. I like music you can sing or hum along to. So, there!

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 2 Jul 2006 8:26 pm

Larry, actually "most" jazz is indeed inside the harmony, but you have to train your ears to hear it. It takes exposure and effort. Most jazz is decidedly not "free jazz", although it can sound like it to the untrained ear. I don't mean that as a put-down but just a fact that it is an acquired ability to hear the harmonic structure that takes time, but it's there.

Scott, Richard Nelson has done some Monk on his steel CD, as has Bob Taillefer on his new disc ("Well You Needn't"). I recorded "Straight No Chaser" with my band, Beats Walkin' on our CD "Bop-a-Billy Swing!" I think all of these CDs are available here at the Forum.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 2 Jul 2006 10:31 pm

Jazz is such a broad subject. I mean, you can go from Louis Armstrong to Thelonious Monk to Bill Frisell and still call it jazz. With a definition that broad, I can't call myself a jazz fan, even though I have a lot of so-called jazz CDs.

When I was a traditional player, I enjoyed 30's jazz as much as 50's country. I never got too far into bop or fusion, though. Too cerebral for me. I don't hear enough heart in it.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
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Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 2 Jul 2006 11:04 pm

Bobby...Heart is a pretty broad subject too.

Per Kammersgaard · Post by **Per Kammersgaard** » 2 Jul 2006 11:13 pm

I like some jazz; traditional jazz, fiddle jazz, guitar jazz and big band swing. Something I don't like is the way jazz people (some jazz people), think they are "above" other kinds of music. That's the way it is over here at least. Does anyone remember Buddy Rich's naste remarks about country music back in the 70's ?

PK

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 2 Jul 2006 11:47 pm

Per,
Don't put much into anything Buddy Rich said. The sad thing is he may be remembered for being a real asshole far more than for his great drumming. Around NYC the jazz guys love country music and have nothing but respect for it. I remember sitting around with a great jazz drummer who was listening to early Haggard stuff. I sat with him while he explained how those guys on the record where some of the best musicians ever because they were swinging as hard as anybody while barely playing.
As far as jazz guys over where you live you might check into
http://inthecountry.no/

------------------
Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website

[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 03 July 2006 at 12:52 AM.]

Kenny Brown · Post by **Kenny Brown** » 3 Jul 2006 3:04 am

I got hooked on jazz after seeing Wynton Marsalis when I was in high school.

More recently, I've enjoyed seeing my kids take a liking to it as well thru a public radio broadcast of the Jim Cullum Jazz Band out of San Antonio.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 3 Jul 2006 3:10 am

(If I ever get blase about country and bluegrass, the insipid bleating of a flute restores my spirit.)

Yeah, fusion flute, that'll really speak to me....

Seriously, I am a rock and roll baby, but there are certain jazz artists who can really ring my bell - and certain others, in the exact same genres, who leave me flat. There are three distinct periods of Miles Davis that I love, but not much from the exact contemporary periods really grabs me. I loved the first Mahavishnu Orchestra, but I find most guitar fusion to be horrific. I (sort of) understand what the bebop guys were trying to do, but it's not something I would spend any time on myself - it sounds confused and mathematical rather than melodic to me.

There has been a consistent impulse among jazz musicians to rebel against trends and be the "new guy." Miles was the anti-bebopper, Coltrane intentionally chose a flat, non-vibrato tone to set his note choices off from the crowd, Mahavishnu specifically chose rock rhythms rather than swing, etc. Sometimes the intentional rejection of the norm can go a bit too far towards alienation for my tastes.

For the most part I tend to like the very first innovators or inventors of a particular strain and not the consolidators. I like Sonny Rollins better than John Coltrane, but I'm not sure why. It seems to me that there's a certain period of early-adolescent imprinting that greatly affects your preferences for ever after - I mean, everybody knows that Jimmy Page could blow Jim Hall's doors off, right?

Per Berner · Post by **Per Berner** » 3 Jul 2006 3:38 am

To me, there's three kinds of music: Music I enjoy, music I really don't like, and music that I am totally indifferent to. Music that puts complexity ahead of beauty usually falls into that middle category.

My basic rules to identify enjoyable music are:

a) more chords/more complex harmonies are not automatically better than simple ones
b) music is not about cramming as many notes as possible into each and every bar
c) looooong tunes are usually boring
d) singers should be able to actually sing
e) hardly anyone (anywhere, ever) wants to hear a drum or bass solo, except the drummer or the bassist playing it

That is why most modern jazz styles get on my nerves, as does rap, metal, punk, disco, the Macarena, Brit-pop etc (including 90 % of the Beatles' songs)

And that is why I like Mozart and Schubert as much as I like most variations on the folk/country theme, from all over the world - along with quite a few jazz tunes.

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´75 Emmons p/p D10 8+4, ca '72 AWH Custom D10 8+3, Hybrid Zum coming soon, Peavey Nashville 1000

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 3 Jul 2006 4:23 am

Great responses so far. This looks like the beginning of another great discussion.

On b0b's point: I like pretty much all stages of Jazz from early New Orleans, through Swing, Bebob, post bob, hard bob, and while I'll listen to some fusion, that is the only area that never really go me to excited. My favorite period is the jazz innovations from the 20's through the 60's when I think most of the major phases happened.

As far as being souless, hard to listen to Lester Young and think anything but soul. Or melody: hard to listen to John Coltrane's ballads without thinking beautiful melody. Let alone Duke Ellington - creator of some of the most beautiful melodies we've ever had.

As far as the complexity of the chord changes, personally I find I need that. While I love a simple melody and changes, I really need more complexity in my musical diet. I get bored quickly withe former but the later is endlessly fascinating.

Horace Silver, Art Blakey, Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Benny Goodman, Theloneous Monk, Louis Armstrong, Basie, Duke Ellington, Lester Young, Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter....

For me, these are the artists that make life worth living.

Petr Vitous · Post by **Petr Vitous** » 3 Jul 2006 5:48 am

In 1992 Charlie Rich released an album called Pictures And Paintings, assigned as "jazz album". If it is jazz then it's great!
http://www.luma-electronic.cz/lp/elpe.htm

Andy Greatrix · Post by **Andy Greatrix** » 3 Jul 2006 6:36 am

Chet Baker, Nat and Cannonball Adderley, Joe Pass, Ed Bikard, Jimmy Smith and Jim Hall are just a few jazz players that make me smile.

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 3 Jul 2006 7:28 am

It makes you a better western swing player that's for sure. I play 8 Charlie Parker songs on alto as close to note for note as I could get, blues and ballades. I study his approaches and some of the stuff rubs off. This guitar player with Merl Haggard I remember years ago could play bebop like crazy besides great country guitar. Jazz arps sound good sometimes when soloing on a country song.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 3 Jul 2006 7:47 am

I was down in Texas for some gigs and I took the time to take a few lessons from some of the legendary country pickers down there. They all basicly told me to work on my jazz chops by using the Abersold method or something like it. I remember Gary Carpenter telling me not to worry about copping the standard licks. He said if I can handle basic jazz all the standard steel stuff will come easy. As a matter of fact most of the legendary pickers from Nashville told me the same thing.

------------------
Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website

John Cox · Post by **John Cox** » 3 Jul 2006 9:11 am

Only thing worth listening to since country has gone down hill. J.C.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 3 Jul 2006 10:01 am

I think that if it's rehearsed then it's not real jazz improvisation but just complex arrangement.
That's why I also think that the ONLY Steel Guitar Jazz album was BE.
(thinks :- 'Don asbestos suit now'..)

Bryan Bradfield · Post by **Bryan Bradfield** » 3 Jul 2006 11:37 am

My first love is bluegrass. Vassar Clements' music introduced me to that of Doug Jernigan. David Grisman's music introduced me to Django. Jerry Douglas introduced me to Bill Frisell. Bill Frisell, through his drummer Joey Baron, introduced me to John Zorn. Etc, etc.

When I enjoy the contributions of a player on a recording session, I seek out more of that player's music, particularly as a leader.

So, my initial love for bluegrass music is partially responsible for bringing me to country music, and to jazz.

My current main listening is in avant garde, experimental, and free jazz. I believe that it refreshes my ears.

I still perform only bluegrass and country music.