Perfect pitch....can it be taught?
Moderators: Dave Mudgett, Janice Brooks
- Tony Palmer
- Posts: 1689
- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
- Location: St Augustine,FL
Perfect pitch....can it be taught?
www.perfectpitch.com
Maybe you've seen ads for this before.
I certainly don't have perfect pitch (as in knowing a chord or note just by hearing it by itself) and have doubts it can be taught.
My son is thinking of buying this course.
Anyone know anything about it?
Maybe you've seen ads for this before.
I certainly don't have perfect pitch (as in knowing a chord or note just by hearing it by itself) and have doubts it can be taught.
My son is thinking of buying this course.
Anyone know anything about it?
- Greg Vincent
- Posts: 937
- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
- Location: Folsom, CA USA
- Steinar Gregertsen
- Posts: 3234
- Joined: 18 Feb 2003 1:01 am
- Location: Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.
- Contact:
I believe the ear and the brain can be trained to recognize the particular 'identity' of each tone, can't really see why it shouldn't. I bought this course about 15 years ago but never really sat down and got into it, so after looking at it for a few months (which certainly did nothing to help my pitch!) I sold it.
That said,- I agree totally with what Greg says, having a good relative pitch is much more important in the everyday life of a working musician. Perfect pitch would be nice (and probably also not-so-nice in some situations), but it's not a must. Focus on training the relative pitch instead...
Steinar
------------------
www.gregertsen.com
That said,- I agree totally with what Greg says, having a good relative pitch is much more important in the everyday life of a working musician. Perfect pitch would be nice (and probably also not-so-nice in some situations), but it's not a must. Focus on training the relative pitch instead...
Steinar
------------------
www.gregertsen.com
- Earnest Bovine
- Posts: 8318
- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
- Location: Los Angeles CA USA
-
- Posts: 6877
- Joined: 5 Jan 2005 1:01 am
- Location: Nanuet, NY
- Contact:
An old music teacher of mine claimed it could be faked, and in fact he faked it.
I have tried experiments along this line. For instance, I noticed that if I hum the note, it vibrates in a very unique way in my throat. By memorizing the exact feel of the vibration in my throat, I thought it might be possible to accurately determine what a note is by humming along. I never really took it further than that, but I imagine it could be done. In otherwords, instead of trying to figure out what the note is by sound, you figure it out by feel, which is much easier to do.
I have tried experiments along this line. For instance, I noticed that if I hum the note, it vibrates in a very unique way in my throat. By memorizing the exact feel of the vibration in my throat, I thought it might be possible to accurately determine what a note is by humming along. I never really took it further than that, but I imagine it could be done. In otherwords, instead of trying to figure out what the note is by sound, you figure it out by feel, which is much easier to do.
- Bobby Lee
- Site Admin
- Posts: 14863
- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
- Location: Cloverdale, California, USA
- Contact:
Mr. Bovine asked earnestly:
Jeff felt that relative pitch could be taught, and he spent much of his time teaching it. Myself, I learned more about teaching from his course than I learned about music. The way he communicated musical concepts was brilliant.
------------------
<font size="1"><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog </font>
That's actually the more interesting question, I think. I remember sitting in a Jeff Newman class where he asked everyone to make a number chart for a song that was playing. I was surprised by the number of people in the room who couldn't do it. Even with a very prominent leading bass line, they hadn't a clue as to which was the 1, 4 or 5 chord.<SMALL>Can relative pitch be taught?</SMALL>
Jeff felt that relative pitch could be taught, and he spent much of his time teaching it. Myself, I learned more about teaching from his course than I learned about music. The way he communicated musical concepts was brilliant.
------------------
<font size="1"><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog </font>
- Leon Grizzard
- Posts: 280
- Joined: 21 Apr 2003 12:01 am
- Location: Austin, Texas, USA
I bought this perfect pitch course, and the idea is that the individual 12 tones have certain characteristics that you can hear and recognize with time. I have always thought that the note F# had a certain wang to it, and that Eb had a certain roundness, or softness, so maybe there is something to it. However, to work the course, it really takes two people. They say you have to do the course on your usual instrument, so you will not be confused by the timbre of a different instrument's sound. It is hard to play mystery notes on the guitar yourself, and even harder on a fretless instrument because of intonation. I was just talking about this with another player today, and he thought the same thing.
These same folks also do a relative pitch course, which I found more useful. You can just do it in your car when driving.
These same folks also do a relative pitch course, which I found more useful. You can just do it in your car when driving.
- Roger Rettig
- Posts: 10548
- Joined: 4 Aug 2000 12:01 am
- Location: Naples, FL
- Contact:
Good point - relative pitch is all that really matters.
I've worked with a couple of music directors who had perfect pitch and they often cursed their 'gift', as anything even slightly off 440 could drive them crazy!
I don't have it, but I can tune my guitar without artificial aids and, when I check it against the tuner, I'm virtually spot-on. That isn't 'perfect pitch', but the result of nearly fifty years of repetitively doing it, and recognising when I've reached the correct note. I'm only capable of doing this on a guitar or a steel, though, where the timbre is familiar - it doesn't help me 'ID' a note on another instrument.
Relative pitch: I found the key to that within weeks of starting to play (in 1957!); without that, I fear a life in music would be unbearable...
RR<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 16 November 2005 at 03:33 PM.]</p></FONT>
I've worked with a couple of music directors who had perfect pitch and they often cursed their 'gift', as anything even slightly off 440 could drive them crazy!
I don't have it, but I can tune my guitar without artificial aids and, when I check it against the tuner, I'm virtually spot-on. That isn't 'perfect pitch', but the result of nearly fifty years of repetitively doing it, and recognising when I've reached the correct note. I'm only capable of doing this on a guitar or a steel, though, where the timbre is familiar - it doesn't help me 'ID' a note on another instrument.
Relative pitch: I found the key to that within weeks of starting to play (in 1957!); without that, I fear a life in music would be unbearable...
RR<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 16 November 2005 at 03:33 PM.]</p></FONT>
http://www.good-ear.com/servlet/EarTrainer
This is an excellent interactive and free ear trainer, save yourself some bucks, this will do the trick for relative pitch and more!
This is an excellent interactive and free ear trainer, save yourself some bucks, this will do the trick for relative pitch and more!
- Chris Lasher
- Posts: 469
- Joined: 6 Sep 2003 12:01 am
- Location: Blacksburg, VA
- Contact:
Tony, your doubts are substantiated. Most scientific studies (the kind that get published in scientific, peer-reviewed journals, the ones like these) have shown perfect pitch is not a ubiquitously teachable skill. It is a talent that is cultivable in those who are born with it. You are born with the ability or without it. Don't sacrifice a large chunk of change to that perfect pitch program. I looked at it myself, when I was searching for an ear training program, and dismissed it, and I'm glad I did.
Hundreds of years of music conservatory pedagogy have demonstrated, time and time again, that relative pitch is a skill, not a talent, and it can be learned. Some pick it up faster than others. Just like playing steel, don't give in to the temptation to get discouraged or overconfident.
I am in engrossed in a novel means of relative-pitch eartraining by Bruce Arnold. You can find it on his site by going to http://muse-eek.com/books/books.html and looking under "Books For Ear Training". He explains in great detail why his method is different from traditional intervallic and melodic eartraining methods, why those older and commonplace methods aren't effective in realtime musical situations, and how his method focuses on ear training that will give useable bandstand skills. You can find this explanation, plus many explanations to common questions people ask before buying and while using his ear training series of books, at http://muse-eek.com/books/eartrng1/eartrngfaq.html .
I find the One-Note Eartraining Method books have really improved my ability to listen actively to music and to more quickly and accurately recreate what I hear from both the radio and in my head. I have also put in a lot of time with the series. One of the main reasons I love them is because of the CDs, which play the I-IV-V-I, then a random note, and then Bruce says aloud what the note is. You get instant feedback if you were correct or incorrect, and you don't have to write on or to look at a sheet of paper for the answer while doing it. It's the perfect way for me to make good use of my commute time to and from my day job.
But enough lauding. Look at it for yourself. Good luck on your pursuit of eartraining, if you decide to pursue it. <font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Chris Lasher on 16 November 2005 at 06:32 PM.]</p></FONT>
Hundreds of years of music conservatory pedagogy have demonstrated, time and time again, that relative pitch is a skill, not a talent, and it can be learned. Some pick it up faster than others. Just like playing steel, don't give in to the temptation to get discouraged or overconfident.
I am in engrossed in a novel means of relative-pitch eartraining by Bruce Arnold. You can find it on his site by going to http://muse-eek.com/books/books.html and looking under "Books For Ear Training". He explains in great detail why his method is different from traditional intervallic and melodic eartraining methods, why those older and commonplace methods aren't effective in realtime musical situations, and how his method focuses on ear training that will give useable bandstand skills. You can find this explanation, plus many explanations to common questions people ask before buying and while using his ear training series of books, at http://muse-eek.com/books/eartrng1/eartrngfaq.html .
I find the One-Note Eartraining Method books have really improved my ability to listen actively to music and to more quickly and accurately recreate what I hear from both the radio and in my head. I have also put in a lot of time with the series. One of the main reasons I love them is because of the CDs, which play the I-IV-V-I, then a random note, and then Bruce says aloud what the note is. You get instant feedback if you were correct or incorrect, and you don't have to write on or to look at a sheet of paper for the answer while doing it. It's the perfect way for me to make good use of my commute time to and from my day job.
But enough lauding. Look at it for yourself. Good luck on your pursuit of eartraining, if you decide to pursue it. <font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Chris Lasher on 16 November 2005 at 06:32 PM.]</p></FONT>
- Ken Williams
- Posts: 769
- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
- Location: Arkansas
- Contact:
-
- Posts: 1892
- Joined: 16 May 2001 12:01 am
- Location: Queen Creek, Arizona, USA
- Contact:
- David Mason
- Posts: 6072
- Joined: 6 Oct 2001 12:01 am
- Location: Cambridge, MD, USA
Perfect with A = 440, or A = 442? Which system do you use to name the microtones, the one that says there are 22 notes in an octave, or 72?* Of course you can teach people parlor tricks, you could probably learn how to knock over beer cans by shooting ping-pong balls out your butt if you practiced, but to what avail? I am in awe of the people who can (reportedly) hear a song once and play it back, or hear a symphonic movement or band arrangement once and sit down and write it out, but they had to have gotten that way by defining goals and figuring out how to attain them. If attaining perfect pitch serves a purpose worth the expenditure of time for your friend, by all means he should leap on it.
*(Both of these seem to reflect the opinions of musicologists needing book-fodder moreso than the musicians playing the stuff, by the way.)
*(Both of these seem to reflect the opinions of musicologists needing book-fodder moreso than the musicians playing the stuff, by the way.)
- Charlie McDonald
- Posts: 11054
- Joined: 17 Feb 2005 1:01 am
- Location: out of the blue
-
- Posts: 6429
- Joined: 22 Jul 2003 12:01 am
- Location: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra
Here you may find a very good example for "The Perfect Pitch":
http://www.clevercartoon.com/johnny/
Horst
http://www.clevercartoon.com/johnny/
Horst
- Greg Vincent
- Posts: 937
- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
- Location: Folsom, CA USA
Ray,
Every steel player should be able to tune his guitar by ear, provided there's no other racket going on that he has to compete with. THAT'S relative pitch --and it's good that you have it!
The guy with so-called "perfect pitch" is the guy that doesn't even need a reference to generate that starting E note that you mention. It's a neat trick but... so??? Can you play and / or sing well? That's all that matters.
The term PERFECT PITCH sounds so impressive that I think it's given a lot more attention than it deserves. "He has PERFECT PITCH!" sounds cool to the layperson, but it says nothing about whether you can play your instrument well.
-GV<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Greg Vincent on 17 November 2005 at 09:37 AM.]</p></FONT>
Every steel player should be able to tune his guitar by ear, provided there's no other racket going on that he has to compete with. THAT'S relative pitch --and it's good that you have it!
The guy with so-called "perfect pitch" is the guy that doesn't even need a reference to generate that starting E note that you mention. It's a neat trick but... so??? Can you play and / or sing well? That's all that matters.
The term PERFECT PITCH sounds so impressive that I think it's given a lot more attention than it deserves. "He has PERFECT PITCH!" sounds cool to the layperson, but it says nothing about whether you can play your instrument well.
-GV<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Greg Vincent on 17 November 2005 at 09:37 AM.]</p></FONT>
- Dave Boothroyd
- Posts: 902
- Joined: 30 Oct 1999 12:01 am
- Location: Staffordshire Moorlands
- Contact:
I agree with Roger R- true perfect pitch is a disability. Even a conventionally tuned piano is too far out for the worst sufferers, and string instruments are painful.
I've known a couple of people who were accurate frequency meters- but they could never relax enough to make music. You need quite a few degrees of latitude in your pitch sense- enough to know when a bit sharp or a bit flat is more interesting than Autotune accurate.
However, I've known quite a few old-school sound engineers who can whistle a 1000Hz alignment tone to within 5 Hz.
Can anyone else perform this utterly useless feat?
------------------
Cheers!
Dave
I've known a couple of people who were accurate frequency meters- but they could never relax enough to make music. You need quite a few degrees of latitude in your pitch sense- enough to know when a bit sharp or a bit flat is more interesting than Autotune accurate.
However, I've known quite a few old-school sound engineers who can whistle a 1000Hz alignment tone to within 5 Hz.
Can anyone else perform this utterly useless feat?
------------------
Cheers!
Dave
-
- Posts: 7549
- Joined: 9 Jul 2005 12:01 am
- Location: Phenix City Alabama, USA
- P Gleespen
- Posts: 1255
- Joined: 30 Apr 1999 12:01 am
- Location: Toledo, OH USA
-
- Posts: 518
- Joined: 4 Nov 2005 1:01 am
- Location: Lexington, KY, USA
FWIW, I think "semi-perfect" pitch can be learned. My experience sort of falls along the lines of Roger Rettig's example. After about 15 years of playing 6 string guitar I started developing a "tonal memory" of E, C, G, and A. All of the other in-between notes were fairly easy to peg as long as I had a grip on those first four. So for me, it was a combination of relative pitch and a limited tonal memory learned through repetition.
How useful has all of this been for me? Not very! I'm not rich (yet), it didn't impress women, and it made me look like a bit of a snob to my bandmates. So now in most situations where I'm dealing with a singer/songwriter type, I just smile and nod my head.
Mateo
How useful has all of this been for me? Not very! I'm not rich (yet), it didn't impress women, and it made me look like a bit of a snob to my bandmates. So now in most situations where I'm dealing with a singer/songwriter type, I just smile and nod my head.
Mateo
- Barry Blackwood
- Posts: 7352
- Joined: 20 Apr 2005 12:01 am