The Steel Guitar Forum

I didn't want to hijack b0b's thread about his new marimba, so I'm opening a new one. In that thread he writes:

<SMALL>..they [the marimbas] all are tuned to A=442 Hz. It appears to be the orchestral standard nowadays.</SMALL>

I am aware that historically there has been a lot of variations in standard pitch, with the current one at 440 being adopted as standard in the late '30s.

A few years ago I had an accordion player in my studio, and he had to get an older accordion since I had recorded all my racks at 440 while his new accordion was tuned to 442.
Today I had a saxophone player over to record some stuff, and the same thing happened,- after struggling with the pitch of his tracks, he asked me: "You've recorded your stuff at 442, right?" All I could say was; "Huh? Everything here is 440, the keyboard, guitars, steel and bass,- do you tune to 442???"

So yes, he explained that most marching bands, big bands, and other settings were horns were played, tuned to 442, so he thought (in fact, insisted) that this was the 'new' standard pitch.

Are we seeing yet another change in standard pitch? If so,- why???

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 27 September 2005 at 05:19 PM.]</p></FONT>

Many people think it is better to be sharp than out ot tune. After a while there are so many of them that everybody has to play sharp.

A good theory, Earnest.

438; 440; 442. It seems to be fashion, like hem-lines. Or, my orchestra plays sharper than yours does.
It's more common in Europe, so I guess it'll be the standard here next.
I guess as a piano tuner, I'm already out of style.

Here is an article that seems to suggest that the trend of raising the pitch standard is actually pulling the entire Universe out of tune!

click here

<SMALL>If we arbitrarily changed the "tuning" of the solar system in a similar way, it would explode and disintegrate! God does not make mistakes: Our solar system functions very well with its proper tuning, which is uniquely coherent with C=256. This, therefore, is the only scientific tuning.</SMALL>

What a load. This guy must be a piano tuner, jealous of Helmholtz for his accomplishments.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Charlie McDonald on 28 September 2005 at 02:36 PM.]</p></FONT>

Here are some numbers I found, that illustrates the timeline of pitch variations since the 1600s;

*1640 Vienna Franciscan Organ A457.6
*1699 Paris Opera A404
*1711 John Shore's tuning fork, a pitch of A423.5 He invented the tuning fork, one of which still exists today.
*1780 Stines, for Mozart, A421
*1780 Organ builder Schulz A421.3
*1714 Strasbourg Cathedral organ A391
*1722 Dresden's chief Roman Catholic church organ A415
*1759 Trinity College Cambridge organ A309
*1762 Stringed instruments at Hamburg A405
*1772 Gottfried Silbermann built the organ in the main Roman Catholic church in Dresden, and it had a pitch of A 415 at the time.
*1780 Organ builder Schulz A421.3
*1780 Stein's tuning fork A422.6
*1751 Handel's own fork A422.5
*1800 Broadwood's C fork, 505.7, which is about half a semitone lower than that of today
*1811 Paris Grand Opera A 427
*1812 Paris Conservatoire A440, as modern pitch
*1813 George Smart adopted for the Philharmonic Society the pitch of A423.3.
*1820 Westminster Abbey organ and possibly Paris Comic Opera used a pitch of A422.5.
*1828 Philharmonic Society A 440
*1834 Vienna Opera A 436.5
*1835 Wolfels piano maker A443
*1836 Pleyel's Pianos A446
*1846 Philharmonic pitch was A452.5 (very high) which lasted till 1854
*1846 Mr Hipkins piano tuner (Meantone) A433.5 (Equal) A436.0
*1849 Broadwood's medium pitch was A445.9 which lasted till 1854
*1858 New Philharmonic pitch C522
*1860 Cramer's piano makers of London A448.4
*1862 Dresden Opera A 440
*1871 Covent Garden Opera House A 440
*1877 Collard's piano maker standard pitch was A 449.9
*1877 St. Paul Cathedral organ A446.6
*1877 Chappell Pianos A455.9
*1877 Mr Hipkins piano tuner A448.8
*1878 Her Majesty's Organ A436.1
*1878 Vienna Opera A447
*1879 Covent Garden Opera A450
*1879 Erard's factory fork 455.3
*1879 Steinway of England A 454.
*1879 British Army regulation pitch for woodwinds A451.9
*1880 Brinsmead, Broadwood, and Erard apparently used a pitch of A455.3
*1880 Steinway may have been using a pitch of A436. According to Steinway of New York, 1880 is right around the time they switched from three piece rims to the continuous rim that is used today. So it is unlikely the pitch was any higher before 1880, yet Steinway of London had a fork A454.7.
*1885 In Vienna a pitch of A435.4 was adopted at a temperature of 59 degrees Fahrenheit for A.
*1885 At an international exhibition of inventions and music in London a pitch of A452 was adopted.
*1896 Philharmonic pitch A439, giving C522
*1925 On the 11th of June the American music industry adopted A440.
*1936 American Standards Association adopted A440.
*1939 At an international conference A440 was adopted.
http://www.uk-piano.org/history/pitch.html

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

The A=440 Hz standard is a compromise based on the standard frequencies of electrical alternating current (AC) worldwide.

In the Americas, the standard for AC is 60 Hz. In Europe and Asia it's 50 Hz. The average of the two standards is 55 Hz. 55 Hz is the musical pitch that's exactly 3 octaves below 440 Hz.

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<font size="1"><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
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Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6)   My Blog </font>

Thank you Steinar.
For reference, modern G# is about 415 Hz, assuming A=440.

Good one, b0b.
Waxing earnestly for a moment:
55 Hz is the A string on your doghouse bass.
110 Hz is the A string on your Telecaster.
440 Hz is the 3rd string on you whiny neck when you mash the pedals.

Brendan, that article you gave the link to is by the famous "Schiller Institute".

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>The Schiller Institute was founded in 1984 by Helga Zepp-LaRouche, the wife of perennial presidential candidate Lyndon LaRouche.

The institute claims to be a political and educational organization, based on reason, the arts and human rights. It believes in international development, universal education and sovereignty for every
nation-state. Looking behind historical events is also a main focus for the institute.</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In other words, it's a think-tank...but with an agenda. Keep that in mind when you read their articles!

Thank you for the 'head's up' Donny!
I just found that link while looking for something else....it seemed such an over the top rant...like Harry Partch on nitrous oxide or something...I figured it good for a laugh
I hadn't noticed the connection with LaRouche...YEOW! Kinda falls into context now.
I think I'll wind up to 442 and try to dodge them bel-canto laser beams!!!

Help save the universe! Crank up the pitch!

Yeah! Everyone jump to A=442. It will make it more profitable for all the String Co.s! _ _ _ _ I tried going to 442 one night and it was the worst sounding night I've ever had playing in public! A real clash with the Bassman! Right or wrong, I was always told from 1948 until now the 440Hz is Standard~Pitch and 442Hz is Concert~Pitch.
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“Big John” Bechtel
’04 SD–10 Black Derby w/3 & 5 & Pad
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15” Eminence
web site
<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by John Bechtel on 30 September 2005 at 06:20 PM.]</p></FONT>

I was doing my once a decade house cleaning and ran across the December, 1992 issue of "The Pedal Rod" from Jeffran College. On page 2 there is a short article from Jeff Newman about tuning up 2 1/2 Hertz above 440.

Quote " ..... the numbers will put your guitar in tune with itself, but it will be a little out of tune with the band. Well this little bit of out of tune has always been taken care of by using the bar left or right of the fret, like we have to do anyway. The compensated tuning numbers are a great way to get your guitar perfectlly in tune chord wise with itself. But if you play open notes like an A chord or an E chord you will notice that your guitar always sounds a little flat, and it is. The tempered tuning numbers area all flat of zero. The E note is in tune, but all the rest are flat, but in temper with E. It was brought to my attention that we need to raise all the numbers, even the E note about 2 and 1/2 Hertz."

Just thought I would share this, the other thread was closed.

Ronnie
"I'd walk to Abilene for a Rains"
<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by R. D. Miller on 30 September 2005 at 07:59 AM.]</p></FONT>

Jeff's chart was intended to center the average pitch of the notes of chords on A=440. The roots and 5ths were tuned sharp of the A=440 standard. The 3rds and 6ths were tuned flat of the A=440 standard. The average of the notes in any chord was in tune with A=440 equal temperament instruments.

To tune a pedal steel to an A=442 standard, you would have to add 2 Hz to all of Jeff's numbers. The E strings would have to be tuned as A=444.5 Hz.

A=440 Hz is still the standard tuning for pop music today. Electronic keyboards and tuners are pre-configured at the factory for A=440 equal temperament.

It seems that many classical orchestras are using A=442 as the standard reference pitch. My new Yamaha marimba is tuned to A=442. I tried to order it tuned to A=440 but they don't make them that way.

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<font size="1"><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6)   My Blog </font>

Its a complicated story indeed...

One of the first references to the tuning of middle C at 256 oscillations per second was (probably) made by a contemporary of J.S. Bach.
It was at that time that precise technical methods were developed making it possible to determine the exact pitch of a given note in cycles per second. The first person said to have accomplished this was Joseph Sauveur (1653-1716). He measured the pitches of organ pipes and vibrating strings, and defined the C of the musical scale at 256 cycles per second.

Nevertheless, in the 1700s 392Hz to 415Hz (Baroque Pitch) was commonly used for Concert A, particularly in France and often had to do with whatever the local church organ was tuned to.

In Germany, Mozart tuned at C=256, his A was in the range of A=427-430. German instruments of the period 1780-1827, and even replicas of those instruments, can only be tuned at A=430.

The 1800s had started with 420-425 Hz (Early Music musicians call this "Low Pitch").
This increased to around 430Hz later in the century and remained there into the 20th century (some called it "Philosophical pitch" referring to its connection to scientific thought at the time).

The first "troublemaker" was Czar Alexander of Russia, at a Viennese congress in 1815, he called for a "brighter" sound, and so all the crowned heads of Europe began doing the same(!).

Despite protests from musicians that "Their Majesties" did not understand that new pitches often demanded the purchase of expensive new instruments (which first had to be designed!), composers Liszt and son-in law Wagner, lobbied for the pitch to be raised. Wagner even had instruments made for A=440Hz and above.
By the mid-1800s, pitches were varying from A=420 to A=460. The result was total confusion .
So by the 3rd quarter of the 19th century, the French government, advised by Italian opera composer Rossini (who was "Inspector of Voices" in Paris), called for the first standardization of the pitch in modern times.

France consequently passed a law in 1859 establishing A at 435Hz, prompting Giuseppe Verdi (Joe Green to grumble "we call A in Rome, what is B-flat in Paris" and attempted to raise the Italian standard to 432Hz. This was thrown out at a conference in Austria in 1885 following protests by the British.

To add to the chaos, Heinrich von Helmholtz's written work on acoustics around this time refers to C=256Hz while the French, the Americans (notably the New York Met), and many orchestras on both sides of the pond, continued to tune A between 432Hz & 435Hz, until the advent of the Second World War.

Then in 1939 Joseph Goebbels (The Nazi propagandist) attempted to establish a single internationally recognized pitch - A=440Hz - at a conference in London (notably excluding France from the group of invited nations), the Germans were developing tape recording were also using a 440Hz test-tone on radio, so they were eager to standardize. This failed due to the collapse of Anglo-German relations shortly after as war broke out.

In fact into the 1940s, all Western text books on physics, sound, and music took as a given the physical pitch or scientific pitch (known earlier as "Philosophical pitch") of C=256Hz.

The next attempt at laying down a universal pitch standard was in 1953 at a meeting of the International Standardizing Organization in London, the aim was to establish A at 440Hz.
This was passed but ignored by a significant number of musicians (who weren't invited this time either !).

The French then accused the British instrument makers of catering to the burgeoning U.S. jazz trade, which tuned at A=440 and above bemoaning the fact that trained classical orchestras would be dependant on what "Jazz players" were dictating.
A subsequent referendum among thousands of French musicians voted overwhelmingly to remain at A=432Hz.

The last attempt to standardize pitch was in 1971 when the European Economic Community (EEC) passed a "recommendation" to fix international pitch at 440Hz. The world blinked and ignored it.
As you can see, its still not decided

In fact Highland bagpipers pitch (officially A=476Hz) is currently increasing at 1Hz every year, the reason being that people's perception of being sharp seems to suggest "brighter" and brighter soon becomes "better", which is a big advantage among competing pipe bands at the numerous competitions every year .
At last count it was at 480Hz !
Many pipers use our V-SAM tuners which top out at A=490Hz, so I tell them they have 10 years before the tuner runs out of steam .

So to end this sad story here are the World Hz charts:
Scottish Bagpipers 480Hz
Indian Shrutis 444Hz
French Flautists 442Hz
American Country/Jazz/Rock/Blues 440Hz
Early Music lovers worldwide 392Hz/415Hz/430Hz

Don't forget that the temperament wars are a whole separate subject.........

Last but not least, I had a call from Stevie Wonder's people yesterday, Stevie has decided to go to 442Hz and they were looking for a tuner to tune everything up (including that old Hohner Clavinet he played on "Superstition").

I hope this wasn't too long winded,

Best regards,

John Norris

Just to be prepared the next time somebody shows up with a 442Hz tuned instrument,- anybody know how many cents those 2Hz equals?

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

In case you're serious, Steinar, about 8 c.
Youre guitar would be that much more valuable.

Hehehe... Well, eh, that meaning of "cent" didn't cross my mind until now...

But seriously,- it's obvious that certain tuning issues can occur in a studio if/when somebody show up with a 442Hz tuned instrument and the other tracks are recorded at 440Hz. The "pitch shift" function could come in real handy then...
By now I'm aware of accordions, marimbas and some horn players,- any more?

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

Well, for once, I'm speechless.

Oh, okay, it does raise some thoughts. This all reminds me of an anarchist convention I went to at Black Lake, Wisconsin in the '60s. At the time I was a journalist with the underground press. The concept of an anarchist convention seemed like such an oxymoron, I just had to see it. I thought it didn't amount to anything but a lot of sex and drugs. I now see I was wrong. Their work is done - and is much more far reaching than I would ever have imagined.

The next time the bass player asks me for a pitch, I'm going to hand him Steinar's list and John's discussion, and tell him to pick one.

An anarchists' convention! Never thought about that.

I use the 'Philosophical Pitch' myself.
But on the other hand, it doesn't matter.

Perfect Pitch is the sound of a Banjo hitting a dumpster. Sorry but I couldn't resist. Anyone posted that yet?