Question on chord names

Pat Kelly · From: Wentworthville, New South Wales, Australia

The material I have describes two separate chords as "minor seventh" They are the seventh in the minor key --- 1, 3b, 5 and 7b
and also the familiar flatened seventh in the major key --1, 3, 5 and 7b. Can some wise forumite give me the correct names of these chords which will discriminate between the two.

Thanks
Pat Kelly

Billy Wilson · From: El Cerrito, California, USA

If you're starting in C for example, the first chord would be Cm7 or C minor seventh. The second would be C7 or C seventh. Most folks just say C seven. If you change the top note to B natural you've got C major seventh or CM7

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

The second one, C7, you may also hear referred to as "C dominant" or "C dominant 7". But, yes, it must have the b3 in order to be called "minor".

Alan Shank · From: Woodland, CA, USA

There is a great deal of confusion about chord names. One of the problems is that if you use a term like "minor" or "major," what do you mean? These terms are used to describe the "flavor" of a chord and also the describe the specific size of an interval.

The poster was using "minor 7th" to describe a minor triad (1 b3 5) with an added minor 7th interval (1 b3 5 ,b7) and also to descrbie a major triad (1 3 5) with the same added minor 7th interval. So, the description "minor 7th" is ambiguous.

Triad descriptions:
major (major 3rd, perfect 5th)
minor (minor 3rd, perfect 5th)
augmented (major 3rd, augmented 5th)
diminished (minor 3rd, diminished 5th)

When you start adding more notes on top of a triad, how do you describe the resultant interval? If you add a major 7th to a major chord, it is commonly called a "major 7th" chord, and when you add a minor 7th to a minor triad, it is commonly called a "minor 7th" chord. But what if you add a minor 7th on top of a major chord, or a major 7th on top of a minor triad? The system breaks down, doesn't it? In the first case, I have seen chords described "C minor major 7th". In the second, we usually just called it a 7th chord, or a "dominant 7th" chord.

Clearly, there is really no consistent, logical system of naming chords in popular music. There is really only one "dominant 7th" chord in a key, that being the 7th chord built with scale tones on the 5th degree of the scale, i.e., in C:

G B D F (1, major 3rd, perfect 5th, minor 7th)

But C E G Bb (C7) and F A C Eb (F7), even though, strictly speaking, they are not the dominant chord in C, have the same set of intervals, so the term "dominant 7th" is sometimes used to mean any chord with those intervals.

Personally, I use a system that assumes the notes are diatonic members of the scale, then specifies any exceptions. So, for a major key:

I - assumed to be major triad
II - assumed to be minor triad
III - assumed to be minor triad
IV - assumed to be major triad
etc. etc.
I7 - assumed to be major triad w/major 7th
II7 - assumed to be minor triad w/minor 7th

IOW, I don't write IIm, because the II chord is a minor triad. If it's a major triad or a "dominant 7th" chord, then I interpret it as V of V, the dominant of the dominant. Your "circle of fifths" is just a series of dominant/tonic
dominant/tonic
dominant/tonic
changes.

I think this expresses the underlying musical structure more clearly. My 2 cents.
Cheers,
Alan Shank

David Doggett · Posted 12 Apr 2005 7:27 pm

I think both Jim and Alan get at the crux of the confusion. In one case you are speaking of a minor 7th chord (1, 3b, 5, 7b), and in the other case you are speaking of the minor 7th note in the dominant seventh chord (the 7b in the chord 1, 3, 5, 7b). This latter chord is called the dominant 7th, or just the 7th, and is not called minor 7th, even though it is understood that it has the minor 7th note in it.

Franklin · Posted 13 Apr 2005 5:31 am

Alan,

I love this subject. And you are technically right but I take a simplistic overview to all of this knowledge. for the following reasons.

Naming chords is ONLY important for communicating my ideas with other musicians. Every musician that knows anything about chord structures knows instantly how to play a major minor seventh when asked because it is exactly what the name dictates.

Designating the two chord as always being a minor chord instead of punctuating as a minor assumes all musicians learned music from the same teacher. Thousands of songs In C have either a D minor and a D major or both within their structure. If I were (in the key of C) to write a chart in letters with a D every band would play it as D major unless I specified it to be a minor chord. The numbers are replacements for letters in the chart and DO NOT change this commonly followed rule for charting songs.

Simplifying communication is more important than speaking strictly by the book.

I specify exactly what I want the chord to be and assume everyone views music differently. I try to relate my view with a clear yet specific chart.

Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 13 April 2005 at 06:33 AM.]

[This message was edited by Franklin on 13 April 2005 at 06:35 AM.]

Alan Shank · From: Woodland, CA, USA

Paul Frankline wrote:
"Designating the two chord as always being a minor chord instead of punctuating as a minor assumes all musicians learned music from the same teacher."

I'm not assuming anything about anyone. This is how I notate for myself. The assumption is, and in my case it's true, that I know what the nature of the diatonic chords in any key. I only annotate notes that don't belong to the key.

"Thousands of songs In C have either a D minor and a D major or both within their structure. If I were (in the key of C) to write a chart in letters with a D every band would play it as D major unless I specified it to be a minor chord. The numbers are replacements for letters in the chart and DO NOT change this commonly followed rule for charting songs."

It sounds to me like you are the one assuming a certain vocabulary on someone else's part. For myself, I would show:

I IV II V
I IV VofV V
where you would show, presumably:
I IV IIm V
I IV II V

My method, which is taken from a harmony text, shows the underlying harmonic structure.

Cheers,
Alan Shank

Pat Kelly · From: Wentworthville, New South Wales, Australia

I expect that if the chords were being called in a musical context, it would be relatively easy to discern which of the two was appropriate. The manual I was reading referred to C minor seventh in a text context discussing chord theory - I felt it was ambiguous. It would seem that abbreviation is the being used to avoid what would be the rather cumbersome descriptions: "C minor minor seventh" and "C major minor seventh"

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

I think the point is that the best system to use is the one that will be played correctly by most people, including those who've not gone through a formal textbook training. Alan, I know that you're right that, in a major key, the II chord should normally be interpreted as minor. Now, you have a choice of being "right" and just writing "II" and hoping all the other guys know as much about formal harmony as you do, or you could bend a little and write "IIm" (or even, gasp!, "2m") and remove all doubt. I'd vote for whatever works!

Webb Kline · From: Orangeville, PA

VofV???? I'm lost.

Here is chord structure 101 the way I was taught and teach it:

Chords are built assuming the dominant 7th scale (or mixolydian) unless otherwise noted as a major (M) 7th or sometimes called delta, which looks like a triangle.

A 9th is the 9th tone (full step above an octave, 11th tone (3 steps above octave) and the 13th tone (5 steps above octave).

A minor (m) notation is always assigned to the 3rd. Any other tone is notatated as "flat", b, or diminished. 3rds that are raised are called "suspended" and all others are called augmented or sharp (#). If a chord is a diminished chord, then all tones other than the root are flatted except for the root, and a major chord is assumed.

9th chords assume that there is a dominant 7th, 11th chords assume that there is a dominant 7th and a 9th tone applied and 13th chords assume that the dom 7th, 9th and 11th tones are in place. The only thing which cancels this rule is when it says + or add 9th, 11th or 13th, in which case all preceding tones in addition to the 3rd and 5th are excluded.

It is a lot easier to explain this looking at a keyboard even if the student plays another instrument.

Hope that makes sense.

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

I know that my old friend Alan is correct in his theoretical assertions about the II chord inherently being a minor, and so calling it a "IIm" is redundant. True enough.

But pragmatism must triumph over dogma in the real world, and therefore what Paul says wins the discussion. In the trenches of music where one plays with possibly many different musicians in the course of a week, quick communication is necessary and discussions of the aspects of the circle of fifths simply aren't in the time budget when you're onstage or in a studio.

Like Paul, if I'm writing charts for a band at a steel show, a II chord will be designated a "2m", likewise a 6 chord will also be a "6m." I want everyone to be on the same page at the same time.

If I'm in G and I want an A7, my chart isn't going to say "V of V," and an E7 chord isn't going to say "V of II" If a guy handed me a chart with "V of II" on it, I'd ask "why the heck didn't you just write it as an E7?"

EDIT: I see Jimbeaux stated my opinion much earlier than I did, and more succinctly, as usual.

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 13 April 2005 at 01:35 PM.]

David Doggett · Posted 13 Apr 2005 1:32 pm

A quick look at any fake book or any other written music with chord names written above the staff will show that Paul, Jim and Herb are right. The assumed II minor and V of V designations are interesting teaching tools that show harmonic relationships. But I have never seen them used in real music notation in published music.

Larry Hicks · From: Alabama, USA

This is a great thread! So, here goes . . .
First, Paul and Herb are dead-on.

There are, however, some easier ways to approach this; and for the folks here reading this that don’t have the benefit of formal theory training, easier is gonna be better.

A lot of this hinges on the key in which you’re playing. More specifically, each key has it’s own “key signature,” i.e. how many sharps or flats will occur in the given key’s scale (do re me fa sol la ti do). No, I’m not diving into all 32-odd key sigs, but, for instance, the key of “C” major has no #s and no bs. The key of “A” major has three #s . . . . its scale reads A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G#, A. This major scale (all major scales) are constructed (ascending) with the following intervals between adjacent notes . . . whole step, whole step, half step, whole step, whole step, whole step, half step (with a half step being one fret, and a whole step being two frets).

This is where a lot of the confusion is generated because it’s not always clear whether the writer is referring to a chord type or an interval.
Any given minor 7th is the interval between two notes . . . in this case the (ascending) interval between a “C” and the next “Bb” above it. If it were a major 7th, it would be a “B natural”. This is very different from a “Cm7” chord [C, Eb, G, Bb) where the “minor” refers to the type of chord (in this case, the interval from the “1” note (C) and the “3” note (Eb) . . . a minor third].

That having been said, lets go back to triads: three note chords spelled in thirds.
Triads may be constructed from any combination of major and minor thirds. Four such combinations are possible:
two minor thirds: diminished triad
two major thirds: augmented triad
one major third topped by a minor third: major triad
one minor third topped by major third: minor triad

The interval between the “1” note (in root position) and the “3” note determines whether the chord is major or minor: C, E, G vs. C, Eb, G.

Even though I respectfully disagree with Alan, I’m gonna take his side for a moment.
Diatonically speaking . . . yes, you can expect the “2” chord to be a minor chord because there will be no accidentals unless otherwise noted. In this case the 2 chord in “C” will be a “Dm” because no accidentals are indicated-----> D, F, A.
However, the delineation here is that the 2-minor chord should be written as “ii”, not “II”. This is accepted practice in theory circles. Hence the diatonic triads constructed (in root position) from the 8 scale tones are notated: I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, vii, I. (There’s supposed to be a funny little circle after the vii that indicates the diminished chord but I can’t make my computer do it).

If you’re reading a chart live on stage (in “C”) and come up on “II”, you’d better be playing a “Dmaj” chord if you’re playing with Paul and me (I like the sound of that!).

One more thing: there is only one “dominant 7th.” It is the 5 chord of the key with its “7” added. In this case it is the “G7” chord (G, B, D, F) because the G is the 5 note (dominant) of the C scale.

There’s no way to give this its due in so short a space, but Webb’s right . . . it’s a LOT easier to see this at the piano keyboard. Billy Wilson answered the original question in two lines, and he’s right on the money.
LH

------------------
I. IV, V (sometimes ii & vi)
www.tonemarkspeakers.com

Larry Hicks · From: Alabama, USA

This is a great thread! So, here goes . . .
First, Paul and Herb are dead-on.

There are, however, some easier ways to approach this; and for the folks here reading this that don’t have the benefit of formal theory training, easier is gonna be better.

A lot of this hinges on the key in which you’re playing. More specifically, each key has it’s own “key signature.” i.e. how many sharps or flats will occur in the given key’s scale (do re me fa sol la ti do). No, I’m not diving into all 32-odd key sigs, but, for instance, the key of “C” major has no #s and no bs. The key of “A” major has three #s . . . . its scale reads A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G#, A. This major scale (all major scales) are constructed (ascending) with the following intervals between adjacent notes . . . whole step, whole step, half step, whole step, whole step, whole step, half step (with a half step being one fret, and a whole step being two frets).

This is where a lot of the confusion is generated because it’s not always clear whether the writer is referring to a chord type or an interval.
Any given minor 7th is the interval between two notes . . . in this case the (ascending) interval between a “C” and the next “Bb” above it. If it were a major 7th, it would be a “B natural”. This is very different from a “Cm7” chord [C, Eb, G, Bb) where the “minor” refers to the type of chord (in this case, the interval from the “1” note (C) and the “3” note (Eb) . . . a minor third].

That having been said, lets go back to triads: three note chords spelled in thirds.
Triads may be constructed from any combination of major and minor thirds. Four such combinations are possible:
two minor thirds: diminished triad
two major thirds: augmented triad
one major third topped by a minor third: major triad
one minor third topped by major third: minor triad

The interval between the “1” note (in root position) and the “3” note determines whether the chord is major or minor: C, E, G vs. C, Eb, G.

Even though I respectfully disagree with Alan, I’m gonna take his side for a moment.
Diatonically speaking . . . yes, you can expect the “2” chord to be a minor chord because there will be no accidentals unless otherwise noted. In this case the 2 chord in “C” will be a “Dm” because no accidentals are indicated-----> D, F, A.
However, the delineation here is that the 2-minor chord should be written as “ii”, not “II”. This is accepted practice in theory circles. Hence the diatonic triads constructed (in root position) from the 8 scale tones are notated: I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, vii, I. (There’s supposed to be a funny little circle after the vii that indicates the diminished chord but I can’t make my computer do it).

If you’re reading a chart live on stage (in “C”) and come up on “II”, you’d better be playing a “Dmaj” chord if you’re playing with Paul and me (I like the sound of that!).

One more thing: there is only one “dominant 7th.” It is the 5 chord of the key with its “7” added. In this case it is the “G7” chord (G, B, D, F) because the G is the 5 note (dominant) of the C scale.

There’s no way to give this its due in so short a space, but Webb’s right . . . it’s a LOT easier to see this at the piano keyboard. Billy Wilson answered the original question in two lines, and he’s right on the money.
LH

------------------
I. IV, V (sometimes ii & vi)
www.tonemarkspeakers.com

Larry Hicks · From: Alabama, USA

Sorry, double post. Didn't think it went through.
LH

[This message was edited by Larry Hicks on 13 April 2005 at 11:54 PM.]

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

(Just sign me "Chopped Liver"...)

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I'm a real dummy at this music stuff, but if someone says to play a II chord in any major key, I'm going to play a major chord! The reason we write stuff down is to avoid confusion, and if someone wants me (in the key of "A") to play a B-minor, they'd better write it as IIm, or 2m! Otherwise, I'm just going to do what makes sense.

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Alan Shank · From: Woodland, CA, USA

Herb wrote:
"I know that my old friend Alan is correct in his theoretical assertions about the II chord inherently being a minor, and so calling it a "IIm" is redundant. True enough.
But pragmatism must triumph over dogma in the real world, and therefore what Paul says wins the discussion."

I don't think there is any "winning" or "losing" to be assigned here. I never suggested that anyone do charts for other musicians the way I do. I use this method because it reveals the underlying harmonic structure and also is efficient, in that no special annotation is required unless chromatic notes are involved. There is also no need to use lower-case roman numerals for ii, vi, etc., since you are just saying, "triad on the 2nd degree of the scale," and the scale determines the nature of that chord.
Cheers,
Alan Shank

David Doggett · Posted 14 Apr 2005 2:38 pm

Alan, I think the point of the above posters is that your method is only practical in the theoretical situation of no chromatics, as you say yourself. This involves only the eight notes of the scale. But so many real songs involve chromatics and the whole diatonic scale that your method is not practical in the real world of musical notation. It's not a question of right or wrong, or winning or losing, but only of what is practical in a given situation.

Here's a related question. Some songs have a bridge that temporarily switches the key (e.g., Faded Love). If you are writing out a chord chart using the number system, is it better to note the key change and switch to the proper numbers of the new key, or to stick with the numbers of the original key. By the same token, some songs temporarily switch from the major key to the relative minor key (or vice versus). Do you switch the numbering, or stick with the numbers from the major key?

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 14 April 2005 at 03:39 PM.]

Alan Shank · From: Woodland, CA, USA

"Alan, I think the point of the above posters is that your method is only practical in the theoretical situation of no chromatics, as you say yourself."

I said nothing of the kind. When there are accidentals, they are notated.

"This involves only the eight notes of the scale. But so many real songs involve chromatics and the whole diatonic scale that your method is not practical in the real world of musical notation."

Oh, please. This method has been in use in classical music for hundreds of years. Have you ever heard of "figured bass?"

"Here's a related question. Some songs have a bridge that temporarily switches the key (e.g., Faded Love). If you are writing out a chord chart using the number system, is it better to note the key change and switch to the proper numbers of the new key, or to stick with the numbers of the original key.

The system that I use would show something like this:

C: V I II
Dm: I V7 I

This reflects a modulation to Dm from C major, using the II chord in C as a "pivot chord." The actual chord names as you would call them would be G C Dm A7 Dm. After that, all the numbers would relate to Dm. So, even though A7 has a C#, no accidental is necessary, because in Dm (harmonic scale) C is sharped.

"By the same token, some songs temporarily switch from the major key to the relative minor key (or vice versus). Do you switch the numbering, or stick with the numbers from the major key?"

I would switch, because the numbers are going to be different, with different meanings, even though the scale signature is the same.

As an aside, the V of V, etc., is indicative of sort of a "temporary modulation," but for only one chord. When you play D7 in C, you are borrowing the chord and the F# note from the key of G.

To sum up, this method is completely practical; it simply is based on a different knowledge base than the Nashville system. As I said, I'm not suggesting anyone use it, but I do believe it is an aid to understanding what is really going on.
Cheers,
Alan Shank

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

I'm not sure that's true, Ernest; experience in pop and jazz leads me to play major when no 'm' designation is added.
And Donny, maybe it's best to play the dummy, as I do, and read the chart straight, as you do. Assumptions count only when you know what that player means when he calls out 'II'.

Pat Kelly · From: Wentworthville, New South Wales, Australia

Some interesting discourse in this thread; if somewhat away from the original question. Further reseach leads me to believe that there is no C minor minor seventh chord or interval. The minor seventh in the minor key would in fact be a sixth. Yea or Nay.

[This message was edited by Pat Kelly on 17 April 2005 at 11:48 PM.]

Howard Tate · From: Leesville, Louisiana, USA, R.I.P.

I have seen some jazz players consider it a key change whenever the II chord is a major instead of a minor, unless it's a major with a minor seventh, in which case it's a double dominate. If I tried to play from a chart like that I would have to rack my pea brain to play the changes, where if I see it written as Jim Cohen , Herb and Paul says, there is no hesitation. And no, you're not chopped liver.

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Howard, 'Les Paul Recording, Zum S12U, Vegas 400, Boss ME-5, Boss DM-3
http://www.Charmedmusic.com

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

Alluding to what David Doggett asked about songs that have a key change, e.g. Faded Love, I prefer the chart to show the chords in the modulated key, rather than the orignal. Like so...



D   D7   G   G


D   D    A7  A7


D   D7   G   G


D   A7   D   D/E7  go to A








A   A7   D   D


A   A    E7  E7


A   A7   D   D


A   E7   A   A/A7   back to D

Also, I personally prefer letters to numbers. But that's just me.

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 18 April 2005 at 12:44 PM.]

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