Playing exactly the same all the time?

JAMES BANKS · Post by **JAMES BANKS** » 11 Mar 2005 7:58 am

This is a question for those of you who play in a band. I have played in 4 or 5 gospel bands in my adult years and a couple of rock and roll groups as a teen. I recently organized a band to play gospel music with a strong classic country feel. Three of us have played in a number of bands however, the bass player hasn't played that much. He keeps insisting that every song be done exactly the same everytime. The other three of us play by ear and we are comfortable with the idea that the material does not sound exactly the same everytime. We feel that we are making music for fun, not precision. Just wondering how the bands you guys play with feel. Maybe I need to have less fun and work harder. I thing as long as humans are playing, things will be a little different each time. Thanks for your comments and thoughts.

James

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 11 Mar 2005 8:02 am

James, the concept is always the same .
Formats are very much the same for the songs.

We don't stray far enough so that the song is no longer recognizable... we may jam but the song stays intact...

t[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 11 March 2005 at 10:18 AM.]

JAMES BANKS · Post by **JAMES BANKS** » 11 Mar 2005 8:05 am

Thanks Tony, Jeff Newman told me it is called playing music because it is supposed to be fun. I like to play with feeling and the crowd response I think should have a lot to do with how it is all done.
James

ROBERT MYERS · Post by **ROBERT MYERS** » 11 Mar 2005 9:03 am

James, the band I play with lets me play the way I feel. Sometimes I might do my break on E9th and maybe next time on the C neck. We also stretch the songs out when the dance floor is packed. If you play it the same way all the time it stops being fun and turns into a job.

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Les Anderson · Post by **Les Anderson** » 11 Mar 2005 9:12 am

Actually, there are two scenarios coming in to play here. One is that a free lance band has the world at their feet as far as playing variations go. That is to say, you can jazz up a tune a tune or, tone it down a notch or two. I have heard some bands bang out an old standard but, jazz it up to the point of hardly recognizing the original score.

The second scenario that has to be considered here is a particular band’s sound. Some bands, usually their leaders, have put a lot of work, if not years, into getting a particular sound that identifies that band: Re; Tommy Dorsey and Glenn Miller. Similar instruments but each band was easily identifiable by their particular sound.

In short, you have to choose which avenue you want to travel. I jam with a make up band on Tuesdays and Thursdays (sometimes Saturdays as well) then practice and play with a church band on Wednesdays and Sundays. The jam session band is gives us all complete freedom to add whatever we want to “try”.

Our church band; well, our music director is more a little heavy on a particular sound that he wants to hear.

In the end, it’s your choice.

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Andy Greatrix · Post by **Andy Greatrix** » 11 Mar 2005 10:16 am

If the bass player is not the leader of the band, he is the one who needs to adjust. If he is a control freak, he should start his own band. How hard can it be to get another bass player?

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 11 Mar 2005 3:23 pm

Andy , there are plenty of Bass owners out there..but I sumize that there are really not that many Bass players...

t

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 11 Mar 2005 4:34 pm

It seems to me that the answer to this question is that it depends on what venue you are playing and who your target audience is. Playing in a strict cover band develops alot of self self control. I find that most players who like to free lance play cannot either hear a particular arrangement or don't have the playing skills to play it. They drop key signature licks of the song to the point that the song doesn't resemble the original at all. All with the excuse of being interpetive.
On the other hand being ina cover band can and I think does sap creativity in one's steel playing. Our band is known for its tight covers, arrangements, and precision execution. We also do original tunes where our originally arranged parts are up to us, but after they are arranged we DO NOT stray from the arrangement. I've heard alot of country players massacre songs until they sounded like twelve years olds pounding away on their instruments out of tune and singing off key. Again, I think it comes down to what you want to accomplish.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 11 Mar 2005 5:19 pm

You answered your own question. The problem is your bass player's, not anyone else's.

...the bass player hasn't played that much. He keeps insisting that every song be done exactly the same everytime.

He obviously learns by rote, and is playing very mechanically. He can't hear the changes, or he can't deal with any sort of variety, and doesn't wish to adapt, or even try! The next time he "insists" on something...insist that he leave, and then find a real musician to play bass.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 11 Mar 2005 6:06 pm

It depends on where you are, but good bass players can be hard to find, as Tony suggests. Lee Iacocca said it best (paraphrased to fit) "If you can find a better bass player, get him". IMO, the rhythm section is the heart of a band. If they're weak, nothing will really fix it.

As far as straying from song arrangements, it depends completely on the context. If it's truly a cover band and people expect to hear accurate covers, you need to do it. But if it's more of a 'jam-band' kind of crowd, they will often get bored if you stick too close to stock arrangements. You're right, crowd response should be a factor, it's important to read the crowd. Your bass player should be good enough to go with you either way, IMO.

Colin Goss · Post by **Colin Goss** » 12 Mar 2005 4:25 am

I guess I am lucky - there are some songs that my band does that I need to follow the set arrangement - Stand by your man etc, but there are others (such as Western Swing numbers) where I am free to do what comes at the moment. That must be the best arrangement.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 12 Mar 2005 4:57 am

It sounds like it's the bass player who's not having enough fun.
I've played fretless Precision for many years, and the only suggestion I ever got about it was to 'turn it up.' One night the singer, Gus Hardin, stuck her mic into my Bassman so everybody could hear me real loud. ("He's so classical", she said.)

The guy needs to let go, realize that it takes all the players to make the song, and that the song is the thing, not one individual's interpretation.
Practice is work, playing is fun.

JAMES BANKS · Post by **JAMES BANKS** » 12 Mar 2005 6:39 pm

Thanks to all of you for your interest. We are not doing anything I could consider a "cover song". His main concern is missing a note now and then or not all hitting the notes precisely together. I keep telling him a fraction of a second is no big deal. Maybe with a little more practice and the piano player and I telling him we are not session musicians nor perfectionists, that is the way we play, he will come around or just give up and go home. It is extremely hard to find any musician in this area to play Gospel. I tried for 3 years to put this band together. These people came to me and wanted me to play with them and then told me I was the band leader. His perfection just gets me sometime. Thanks to all who responded.

James

Les Anderson · Post by **Les Anderson** » 12 Mar 2005 9:23 pm

Jeez James, if you are running the show, I think I'd be laying some ground rules down to this guy.

You run the show, he falls in line with your rules. Those are the given rules of being a band leader.

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(I am not right all of the time but I sure like to think I am!)

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 13 Mar 2005 12:00 pm

For a bass player without a lot of experience, it's important that the arrangements stay the same. He often needs to walk up or down to lead in a bridge for example.

The actual parts that everyone plays shouldn't make a whole lot of difference to him though. American music has a long tradition of improvisation especially in the lead instruments. This should not concern the bass player. The sooner he gets used to the fact that you play different parts each time the better.

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Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 18 Mar 2005 5:05 am

what b0b says..but I'll take it a step further..

the sooner a BASS player learns that they "ARE" the ones "PLAYING" the song then he/she will understand that the other cats may be playing along, in-between,underneath, over the top or perhaps maybe not at all....

ok..I'm gonna say it..It's difficult for an established group or established soloists to play with a Bass player that is not up to stuff. This does not mean that they are not good folks, it just means they are not ready for whats required.

Certainly the Bass player in this type of situation should not be giving orders...

I'm certain many of us have been here as well. In my ealry days I have been here on Bass , Guitar and Steel and been asked ( gently) to not come back too !

It happens...and you become a better musician for it .

musicians should know there limtitations as well as what they offer..it works both ways..
t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 18 March 2005 at 05:09 AM.]

Mike Bowles · Post by **Mike Bowles** » 28 Mar 2005 9:21 pm

I play lead for a gospel group I cant remember the last time we played a song 2 times in a row exactly the same way but we still had fun thats what makes music interesting it keeps it from becoming boring

JAMES BANKS · Post by **JAMES BANKS** » 30 Mar 2005 2:51 pm

Hey Mike That is what I am talking about. Just let the spirit take over. The neat think about gospel is there just isn't much of a "cover" band. I just like to relax and play. If I miss a chord or an accent every now and then, so what!

Thanks
James

Don Joslin · Post by **Don Joslin** » 30 Mar 2005 6:42 pm

I've been chewing on this one for a couple of days. With orchestral or chamber music you get fired if you can't play it note for note at each performance. The 'expression' is even controlled by the composer on the score.

As was said above, a strict cover band must have the ability to sound like a human jukebox every time you play a song. That's why I quit playing in cover bands.

With improvisational forms you get fired if you need to play it the same each time.

Seems to me that it is genre dependent. You want to improvise then hire someone who can improvise. If you want strict arrangements then hire someone who can either read music or has a really good memory. Just make the expectations clear up front and their shouldn't be an issue.

BTW - IMO the best musicians are those who can do both.

Don

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