Diminished as sub for dom7 chord

Greg Vincent · From: Folsom, CA USA

Hey folks,

I'm having fun using diminished chords as subs for dom7 chords. I like to move through different 3-note inversions of that diminished chord and chase it all around.

My qusetion: Since only three of the notes in a diminished chord correspond to the dominant 7th chord I am subbing for, is it wrong to use all the 3-note inversions of that diminished chord?

I like the way it sounds to move that dim chord around, but I guess musically it's incorrect. Am I fouling things up? -GV

Chris Brooks · From: Providence, Rhode Island

Greg, I think this is what your situation is (Check me on this, guys . . .):

You are alternating a G#dim with G7.It works because a G dom 7th is nearly enharmonic with a G# dim.

A G# dim's notes make up a G13b9 chord: that is, an "altered" G7.

Another nice cadence in C is:

G7 Gdim G7 to C

Chris

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

A diminished chord can substitute for a dominant 7b9 chord, minus the root. Hopefully the bass player is playing that note. Any of the 4 inversions is still a 7b9 chord.

As to whether the b9 note is "wrong" or not, my feeling is, when playing single note solos, there's no wrong notes, just wrong emphasis. Too much time spent on an ill-advised note is "wrong," but every note in the chromatic scale can be quickly played over any chord and it'll sound okay.

So what's "wrong" is a question of style, personal choice, and what the rest of the band is playing and when.

Chris, a G#dim doesn't have an E note, which is needed for a 13b9. The diminished is a 7b9 substitute



     G# dim   G


G#     root   b9


B      b3     3


D      b5     5


F      bb7    b7

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[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 19 November 2004 at 12:04 PM.]

Greg Vincent · From: Folsom, CA USA

Cool -thanks guys!

So if anyone in my band complains I can just say "Hey man, it's acting like a b9 chord -you hip?"

(That will be fun!)

-GV

[This message was edited by Greg Vincent on 19 November 2004 at 12:52 PM.]

John Steele (deceased) · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

the 7b9 chord comes from the diminished scale, which repeats every minor third, and is symmetrical, therefore;
You can feel free to move it around in minor thirds.
-John

CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

lower a half step any one of the notes/tones that make up a diminished chord and you'll get a Dom 7

John McGann · From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.

for further fun, voice it so you can raise the top note a whole step, then move around as a two-voicing sequence in minor 3rds. (say pedals 5 and 6, then adding p7)...a whole step above any chord tone is game here. I've heard this used by Buddy and other steelers as well as pianists and underage, um, underarm guitarists...

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[This message was edited by John McGann on 19 November 2004 at 02:49 PM.]

Sam Marshall · From: Chandler, AZ USA

I always think of it as dom 7 flat 5 so that I only have to remember that it is the 5 chord when I intend to alter it.

A trick I use is to pretend 1 is minor when it is major. For a ii-V7alt-I pattern, I sometimes I play a I (one) harmonic minor scale over the V7 to provide its alteration notes. You can extend this to make a ii - minor 7 flat 5. Just make sure you go back to I major when you arrive there in the pattern.

OK, enough about harmonic minors!

Sam

[This message was edited by Sam Marshall on 19 November 2004 at 04:46 PM.]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I wrote a tune once that I thought had a bunch of diminished chords in it. I took the chart to the band and we played it and the bass part sounded wrong. I figured I must have picked the wrong note of the diminished as the root.

I went home and rewrote the chart. Next week, the same thing happened. The bass line just wasn't right. I sat down and analyzed how I was using those diminished chords. In my head, I was hearing them as substitutions for 7th chords in a 1-6-2-5 progression.

I rewrote the chart once more, using roots that weren't notes of the diminished chords. The chords were actually 7b9 chords. The final chart worked beautifully.

The song was [url=http://soundhost.net/b0b/radio/Alva's_Occidental_Melody.b0b.mp3]Alva's Occidental Melody[/url] (4.4 MB mp3), which is on my Quasar album.

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[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 21 November 2004 at 05:51 PM.]

Sam Marshall · From: Chandler, AZ USA

OK, here's another trick. The net result is diminished chords moving chromatically down. Other sequences are possible, too.

If you use a pattern (as used on many bridges) of the following dom 7 chords: 3-6-2-5. An example is in the key of C.

E7 - A7 - D7 - G7.

E7b9 - A7b9 - D7b9 - G7b9.

Fdim - Bbdim - Eb(dim) - Ab(dim)

Play around with it and you should see moving a diminished chord chromatically down gives you this pattern.

The 3 - 6 - 2 - 5 pattern can be used for a long 1 chord, too.

Regards,
Sam

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