The Steel Guitar Forum

GRRRRrrrrr!

I really enjoyed Brad Paisley's show last night at Cowboys, but it was far too loud. To make matters worse, I was standing on the right side of the stage, and almost directly in front of a large stack of PA speakers. I have lost quite a bit of top-end in my right ear. It was so bad that I repeatedly felt my ear to check for blood to see if I had a ruptured eardrum. My hearing seems to be coming back slowly, but I've learned my lesson about getting close to the stage at Cowboys. Next time, no matter how uncool, I must wear earplugs.

Still, I'm sorry, but when your 10,000 watt PA system starts distorting, you're going overboard on volume. There were not one, not several, but many occasions where the sound last night was just pure sonic mud, and the only thing cutting through were the vocals, and the only reason for that was because they were cranked higher than everything else. It was literally deafening. I think my ears would have been safer off standing behind an F-15 Eagle with its afterburners lit. Holy smokes.

Why do clubs crank up the volume so much!? Who enjoys listening to music at such ridiculous volumes? Is the soundman just some masochist who gets a thrill out of seeing people cringe when someone hits a harmonic? Or is the soundman already deafened by his own consistently poor choices in sonic amplitude? How the heck do the musicians survive up there? I realize Brad and crew had inner-ear monitors, and that they were standing behind the PA system, but I swear, that sound flooded the whole place, there was no way any cubic centimeter could have been spared.

This is not just a problem with Cowboys, though. G3 at the Tabernacle in Atlanta was viciously loud, especially with three guitarists on stage at once engaged in a chops-fest, and even Eric Johnson, who once stopped playing out briefly because he thought he might be suffering from minor hearing loss, had an uncomfortably loud mix when he played at the Variety Playhouse. I've even heard jazz gigs here in Athens that were just too loud. (Sidenote: I have very low expectations for Athens soundmen, who have a terrible tendency to turn the bass up to 11.)

How on earth do these professional musicians survive the night-after-night exposure to such aural abuse? Aren't they at all offended that their tones, which many spend hours in soundcheck perfecting, get squashed and blasted out of these massive speakers like purée spewing out of an overstuffed blender? Don't they care that their shows are causing discomfort to their audience members, their loyal fans, their money trees?

I haven't been going to shows that long, so I'm wondering, have concerts always been this loud, or have they gotten louder over the years? I can't imagine how anyone over the age of 40 could have any hearing left if they attended more than one show a year.

*sigh*

I guess I'm done ranting. I'd like to hear everyone else's thoughts on this matter.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Chris Lasher on 22 November 2003 at 08:32 PM.]</p></FONT>

I couldn't agree more.

I haven't been to a concert of any sort for a couple of years and, to be quite fair, the last show I saw was Diamond Rio in Asheville, NC - their balance and general volume level was excellent.

My earliest concert experiemces (back in 1950s' London) were shows by Eddie Cochran, Duane Eddy, the Everly Brothers and Britain's own Lonnie Donegan - in those days, amplification was in its infancy, and most touring shows depended on the very 'minimal' PA system that was already in place at the venue, and they created enormous excitement through real dynamics (almost a lost art).

The same was still true when I turned pro soon after - I played with Billy Fury, Terry Dene, Marty Wilde, and other British rockers, and we never carried a PA. I'm pretty sure that we - like the artistes mentioned above - managed to send people home happy despite these limitations.

Audiences today seem inured to the farcical volume levels, but the enthusiasm they display is no different than the reaction we used to get.

I do feel that no-one actually applauds anymore - it's more just whistling and yelling, and it dissipates moments after the song is finished.

I really believe we've all become a little de-sensitised - I nearly walked out of the cinema on Friday, as the volume-level of the trailers and advertisements preceding the movie was actually painful. AND..... I'm a bit deaf after a working-life spent too near drum-kits.

Ah well - Brave New World.....

------------------
Roger Rettig

Sometimes I think the volume thing has to do with generating some kind of psychological (adrenaline?) rush in the audience.
Perhaps the old fight or flight thing kicking in.
It cranks up the audience and they go home thinking they've seen something great.
Sometimes it's done to cover up for poor musicianship and weak material (play loud boys and they won't notice how bad we stink.)

Volume creates a feeling of isolation for the individual members of an audience. You can feel secure and alone while enjoying a group dynamic.

It serves no creative or musical function.

Bob<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 22 November 2003 at 09:45 PM.]</p></FONT>

The louder the music,
the more people drink.
It's better for business.
It's sad but true!
I did a top-forty job
a month ago with a young band.
We showed up with a monitor system.
the bar supplied the mains,
which were run by the DJ.
Volume wise, we were on par with
disco music.
Besides that, I was sitting beside
a guitar player that played steel licks
from the beginning to the end of each song.
he played well, so I just comped chords on
the 6th, 8th, and 10th strings all night.
All I did all night was to pray for
death to come.

Years ago I took my family to see Jerry Reed's show and it was so loud, we left because of the pain in our ears and wasn't worth the risk. Too bad because it was a great show.

One of Hank Thompson's band members (who shall remain anonymous) told me once that they used this formula to set their volume....

If no one was complaining, the band wasn't loud enough...turn it up!

If everyone was complaining, it was too loud...turn it down!

If only a few people were complaining, turn the master control up one more notch and then forget it the rest of the night!
www.genejones.com <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 23 November 2003 at 04:49 AM.]</p></FONT>

It's not only the bands that are way to loud, but also DJ's when the bars/clubs have them in instead of live music. The walk in movies/cinemas are also way to loud for my ears. When I first got out of the woodshed, I played at a small place that catered to a group of older people and even tho it was only a jam session, the first thing that the singer did was to ask the crowd if the volume level was to loud. That is something that I don't think will happen very often at any live performance or any place else for that matter. About 3 months ago I went to a small bar with one of my friends. The place couldn't have had more than 50 people and the music was deafining. I still can't understand why the bands need to crank up the volume.
George

Dear Lord should I? Or should I be silent?

Hmmmmm,

Oh well, I been flamed before, sooooo...

I will say it and let the chips fall where they may.

Folks, the level of sound just about anywhere one goes is simply way toooooo loud. In fact it is far past incredibly loud or horridly loud. It even passes stupidly loud.

Wanna know how loud it is? My daughter is a very beautiful singer. Some have described her voice as angelic. She brings tears to many as well as her mother and I when she sings the Lord's Prayer. I would crawl on my hands to hear her sing. But guess what?

At her church (of all places) the sound was sooooooooo horribly loud, I had to say, "honey I love you with all my heart. You are the dearest thing to your mom and I, but I cannot ever come back to this church and see this terrible spectacle of what is called music. I refuse to have my hearing ruined by this unbelievable spectacle of sheer stupidity."

The sound was so loud it was hurting my stomach, not to mention the pain in my ears. And in a place that was built to worship our Savior no less!!!! May God have mercy on their souls for destroying his temple.

All of this after I stopped cold dead from producing another Steel Guitar Extravaganza show in Atlanta because the sound was so loud that I could NOT hear my wife screaming in my ears 3/4's the way back in the hall.

And get this. I asked each player to keep the level much lower than what is normal at other shows (all agreed). In fact I read the riot act to the PA crew about it when I hired them. When I could not hear my wife, I went to the sound booth ready to clean house. When I got there, the head sound man pointed to the board and said,

"carl, look at the master level control". When I did, it was completely OFF!! And yet the steel player who was playing at the time was sooooooo loud that it was bursting my ear drums that far a away from the stage. What in heaven's name was he trying to prove???? I was not putting on the show for downtown Altanta 25 miles away!!!!

It was at that moment, I said, "NEVER again."

And I have never done it again, nor will I ever be subjected to it again. I was in StLouis this year, but I never once went into that hall. I had no intentions of going in it. I knew before I ever went in there what I would NOT hear. And that was any semblance of music played at a decent level. So I simply stayed outside in the Excel booth.

Elvis' rebellion started it all. Then the kids joined the dastardly sin. Sadly many adults bought into it and now the kids have grown up never once hearing one single song at a decent level. So all they know is LOUD and sadly, LOUDER!!!!!

Yes, earth shattering LOUD. And the most pitiful thing I ever heard was them responding to me in their disrespect for anyone who dares to say anything,

"well even god said, make a joyful noise".

YES GOD did, but he never said make a LOUD joyful noise.

Folks you may flame me, castigate me or lop my head off, but I am telling you it is ludicrous. It is a sin how loud music has become just about anywhere it is played. When one considers that the human ear (which has not changed since its creation) was designed to listen to music at NO more than 10 watts and normal listening should be held to 1/8 of a watt; it proves that man has always chosen evil over good.

Any audiologist or ear Doctor will tell you that kids are loosing their hearing at an ever younger age. And yet NO body is willing to stop this madness, except a few like those that post on this forum. Soooo sad. Sooo unecessarily sad.

Oh well,

carl

I'm with you, George. Almost everything is too loud for me anymore, concerts, steel jams, movies, etc.. I'm about half deaf now (from 45 years of amplified music), so if it's too loud for me, I must assume that the remaining population must be about three-quarters deaf.

Most (if not all) of the problem can be traced to the rock n' roll revolution of the '60s. While we did get a few good groups, most all of them (even the 'Stones) really sucked. "Loud" was all they had, and the lead players would positively stutter if asked to play something with no distortion (lest it show their true lack of prowess). While still a teen, I played Satisfaction until it was thoroughly imbedded in my brain. We all thought it was the coolest song back then! I listen to it now, and wonder where my head was. Somewhere along the line (might have been one of the British groups), someone decided to "mike" the drums (which is arguably the world's loudest instrument, anyway), and things <u>really</u> went to hell.

The '70s brought us Saturday Night Fever...disco, and though it's life-span was short, it begat the "super-low" revolution of loose miked bass drums and multiple bass cabinets. This transferred to country via Urban Cowboy, and gave us the country line-dance phenomena (AKA, hillbilly-disco) which still exists today. Many line dancers aren't the most musically astute people on the planet, so if the beat doesn't hit them in the face with the force of a slap with a wet wash-rag, they stumble about, rather aimlessly. Lots are fugitives of the '60s and '70s anyway, so the loudess probably reawakens their primordial instincts of that era, and makes them feel more young and capable.

Whenever I go to a local show or a club today (can't stand the big "concert" venues, anymore), the first thing I notice is the size of the bass bins and the sub-woofers. Usually, they're about the size of refrigerators. Following the snake of wires back usually leads me to the "board", which rivals the size of a pool table. The appearance of a 64-channel (or larger) mixing console signifies that everything but the singer's navel is "wired for sound". The entire drum kit is wired, or triggered, and loaded for bear. The drummer's sticks look like tent-poles...no doubt he learned to play providing the rower's beat on a Greek Trireme. Multiple mikes in front of each amp fortell the coming aural assualt, so I meander to the side of stage nearest the steel man, and wonder if I'll be able to stay a whole hour, this time, before my senses warn me to flee. (Remember, this place will only hold a couple hundred people, anyway.)

Ahhhh... country music. Don't ya love it!

Donny, I do believe that you've nailed the problem.

From my 'post' above, you will see that I was a musician who worked with rock'n'roll singers, and I feel that, while we were amplified, the volume levels were reasonably-well controlled.

It was a few years later, in the mid- to late-'60s when they started putting mics on the drum-kit, that things began to get out-of-hand. After that, the guitar-players felt they had to beat the drummer at his own game, and the ghastly upward spiral began.

We toured the UK (playing cinemas with stage-show facilities) with the Stones in '65 - they, like us, were still using 'house' PA systems, but they over-drove their amps so much that the result was an appalling cacaphony. (Of course, I also heard them 'warming up' in their dressing room without amps - that was an appalling cacaphony too, but at least you could get away from it!)

My happiest musical touring experience in recent years was my time with song-writer Sonny Curtis. He decreed that our overall volume - regardless of the venue - would never exceed a comfortable level. Sonny restored my faith in those early principals, and proved that real dynamics are acheived by musical skill.

I make my living playing musical theatre shows now - that medium demands that the music underscores, and doesn't obliterate, the spoken word. It suits me fine!

------------------
Roger Rettig

If you want to see a guy really flip... really go nuts!... go up behind a sound man at a show, and pull the ear plugs out of his ears! Disclaimer: Prepare to be attacked.

As one who likes to sit near the soundboard (it's supposed to be the best sounding place in the room, right?) I've noticed (at some of the loudest shows I've been to), this seems to be the case.
The soundman is wearing generic foam earplugs!... not even the pro-musicians type.

FWIW, I have been wearing custom molded Musicians Earplugs at gigs (and conventions) for probably 5 years now.
Both for shows I play at, and/or attend.
I do however get some gigs and see some shows where I don't need them, and things do sound better without them.

I have interchangable filters for mine -9db, -15db, and -25db.
For the most part, I use the -9db's, but sometimes put a -15db filter in the side that the snare is on (the snare is the worse offender for me).
http://www.etymotic.com/pros/er15more.html

Have you ever got in your car the next morning after a night of partying and noticed how loud the radio volume was set?
(note: only in my younger years)

Yes, Wayne!

I learned that lesson in the days when I had a power amp and graphic equaliser in my car. I'd pop a tape in the following morning and - YIKES!

RR

I like music played loud. But it has gotten way out of line. I have quit going to concerts, not only because of the volume, but the screaming idiots that think think whistling and screaming (remember the Beatles) while the band plays is cool. This is a s loud as the PA at times.

I like to "feel" music. I think they crank the subwoofers up so loud that the building and floor transfers the feeling of the music into the body. This can create a more enjoyable feeling for me. Unfortunately, it has gotten TOO loud. Now I can't go to these concerts for fear of my teeth banging each other and going away with broken teeth.

TURN IT DOWN GUYS!!

eh?

There's a club I played that has a sign on the door that says "If it's too loud your in the wrong place" Young folks like it loud! Hell, I like it loud sometimes! It's all according to what kinda music your playing. I play guitar and use a Super Reverb when I do a blues job. That amp really sounds great but you gotta push it to get a really good blues tone. I HATE pedals so it has to come from volumn. Now as far as country music goes this is not the case. It's got to be clean and real purty or hot "n" sweaty. But then Brad ain't no country player is he. Soundmen in general are frustated musicians whose only purpose in life is to feel like they have an integral place in music. What I really despise are small clubs that think they need a massive sound system and a soundman that wants to mic everything and don't know $hit from shinola.

cf

Charles I remember some of those signs that were even more direct: If it's too loud, your too old!

Seriously, from the old school of audience dynamics that many of us old heads graduated from, the conventional wisdom was that "it was better to be too loud than not loud enough. Slow and quiet music was "the kiss of death" for a performing band.! It's like the PR term: "BAD publicity is better than NO publicity.
www.genejones.com <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 24 November 2003 at 11:49 AM.]</p></FONT>

I used to play in very loud country bands. Now I play in a quiet rock band. Go figure! I don't know why country bands like to turn it up so much, but I'm finding that the rock musicians I play with now are much more into listening to each other.

------------------
<font size="1"><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax</font>

In the few venues I played where there was a sound crew totally unattached to us but came with the venue, people would come up and ask why we were so loud.

I'd have to say darn it Lady, My Peavy knob is on 4, I can barely hear the keyboard across the stage and if the fiddler weren't standing near me I couldn't hear him.

Are you telling me you hear something different on the other side of the 12 foot, great wall of speakers on either side of the stage?

I bring my ear plugs ALWAYS when watching live music. Depending on the artist I will wear them. I have gone to the extent to get the custom molded ear plugs fit to my ear and then the 15dB and 10dB filters. This way it reduces the volumes evenly instead of the foam plugs that just cut high frequency.

However, I have run into this problem...I can not play steel with a band and wear ear plugs. For some reason I can not hear myself well enough to get my intonation right on. Maybe it is a "rookie" thing. I have only been playing steel for around 4 years. I still feel uncomforable playing steel without hearing myself loud and clear. The plugs seem to make things worse...anyone else have this happen to them?

Mark


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Sho~Bud Pro I, Fender D-8 (C6&E13) http://www.darkmagneto.com

I just "took in a show" in a deserted local club with a friend from out of town. Large club, and we weren't sitting up front.

They were rudely playing above the level where we could converse easily. They could have easily been more considerate. (sarcasm)

Rather then go up and pay my respects and introduce my new friend like I did, I probably should have told them sternly to TURN IT DOWN! so they wouldn't interfere with our conversation and then traded our niceties.

If I'd read how other artists feel I probably would have. I could have acted like the blue hairs with the sound meters I suppose... God knows I've seen enough of them.

I personally love it when once in a great while I'll get told in a place where I have absolutetly NO control over ANY of the level how horrible and loud the band is, and that there's a whole table full of regular customers that is "ready to leave". I tell them to make sure the door doesn't hit them where.. invariably another bunch that does enjoy the music takes their place. Mostly they're just people that want to sit somewhere and talk and drink water anyhow. They get mad when we don't play 'Watermelon Crawl" so the can do "the dance" or an "Electric Slide". Jut recently they quit howling about wanting to do the "Achey Breaky" (Can I get a witness?)

In spite of people that know that I "circulate" in the club I've played at for 20 years thinking that it makes me some kind of "complaint department", I still do it. Small wonder many of the other bands make a Bee Line for the "band room" at breaks. Sometimes I get the feeling that all a lot of people want to do is complain, either at home, or when they go out for "entertainment" which is a lot of times just "complaining in public". I just ask them "what are you going to bitch about now?" smiling, and they seem to leave me out of their little "game".

Quiet Rock Band?

Maybe in a rest home.. hopefully not in mine. I'll be wanting to hear "867-5309" at bed pan rattling volume.

eh?



EJL<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Eric West on 24 November 2003 at 01:11 AM.]</p></FONT>

"Quote"
They were rudely playing above the level where we could converse easily.
----------------------------------------
Looking at it from the other side of the fence, If you wanted to converse, why didn't you go to a restuarant, instead of expecting the band to play quiet elevater music for you.
You said they were putting on a show.
If you didn't want to listen, perhaps you should have gone elsewhere.
They can't move;You can.

Andy...

I was KIDDING...

Actually that's what I think exactly.


I will edit it appropriately with little smileys.

I'm also one of the people that CLAP and whistle when there's a dead club and I go out to see a bunch of fellow musicians. I'm EASILY entertained, and I know how awkward it is when you've even done a GOOD job, and your fellow musicians can't even seem to "fake it".

I get a kick out of seeing a TOP BAND playing the SAME PLACE our band plays in, at TWICE the volume, and there isn't a complaint #1. Not a ONE. then when the "familiar band" gets up there, nothing but bitching even at half the volume.

More and more I think that familiarity breeds contempt. I don't stop letting people get "familiar" with me, I just know when and how to shut off the "contempt" in a rapid matter of fact fashion. I have the habit of shaking hands with my friends every time I see them at jobs musicians or not, as it tends to keep the formality up there a little bit. I do it every night after gigs. If I don't, it's because I usually don't like them.

I for one think that it's been brought downhill by too many people being able to "control all their options" and whine when they can't. It's taken a lot of the "formality" out of it too.

Used to be you'd wait for ET, Hanks T S or W, ,Buck, Billy Walker or Jeanie Seely to play a State or County Fair or a local auditoruim, for sometimes a whole YEAR, hear them, and come home with your ears ringing, and remember it fondly the rest of your life. I can remember putting tissue or paper in my ears a couple times I guess. It never crossed my mind at the time.

Now if it isn't the volume of what people see and hear on their Home Entertainment Centers they get all irate.

I'm surprised people don't complain about the noise level at Football or Baseball games, or the cheering at boxing matches.


Oh I suppose they do, but like many others, I just don't seem to pay much attention to them.

eh?



EJL

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Eric West on 24 November 2003 at 01:31 AM.]</p></FONT>

Contrary to what some have said above, I find that playing really loud is not at all a good way to cover up bad playing. The louder you play, the better and more perfect you need to be. Playing quieter I can cover up way more poor playing.

But of course I agree that it's too loud at many small clubs. In my experience it started with the Beatles, Stones and the Who in the '60s (the walls of Marshalls and Voxes - about the same time it became cool just to stand around in front of the band and listen instead of dancing. I think that was a European thing - certainly seemed weird to me coming from the dancing South. Punk cranked up the volume even more. At rock clubs you just gotta be loud or you sound lame. I'm about to take delivery on my second twin reverb - I'll be playing through two of them at some venues, twin twins. At big concerts you just gotta stay away from the speakers...duh. At movies I now always sit in the back half. We're all going deaf. It's an insidious thing you don't notice until it's too late.