The Steel Guitar Forum

OK guys and gals- here it is
I just wanted to know if others share some of my concerns about bluegrass.
First let me say, bluegrass has attracted many outstanding musicians. I played in a bluegrass band for many years.I loved its old time and Celtic roots;that is what attracted me to it.
We had great singers and the gospel singing was especially good.
So it is a great source of fascination to me how the genre could have so many problems.

1)i swear, half the time you can't make out the melody
2)I think it would benefit greatly from drums
3)i really think the bass line has been uninspired in most all songs
4)That high pitched "lonesome sound" with heavy twang sounds like a dog with its foot caught in a barbed wire fence
5)The format is so rigid: almost always fixed repeat of verse and chorus without variation or bridge
6) Songs are almost always in G C or D
7) Rigid repeat of melody, first with one instrument, then another, not leaving any room for a coherent creation of melody and countermelody where the total is better than the sum of the parts. (in a practice session, many are great at improvisation, but it doesn't come across in the performance or record)
When i first heard bluegrass in Iowa City in late 60s, they way they played classics such as John Hardy was as pretty a music as i have ever heard, but it seems it has done nothing but go downhill since.

Sorry for this rant. I just had to get it off my chest.
If i have offended bluegrass lovers, please understand, i opened this thread in the hopes that maybe some of you could take it to heart and improve on it.

Bob

<SMALL>1)i swear, half the time you can't make out the melody</SMALL>

Listen to the old Seldom Scene, or Alison Krause for melody. There are plenty of modern bluegrass songs with melody.

<SMALL>2)I think it would benefit greatly from drums</SMALL>

Like the Osbourne Bros. did or Knoxville Grass? It's been tried, however, for the most part the genre of bluegrass is defined as acoustic string band music. Of course, you probably knew this.

<SMALL>3)i really think the bass line has been uninspired in most all songs</SMALL>

You obviously have not been listening to Mark Shatz playing with the Tony Rice Unit. Some bluegrass derivative music like David Grisman or Nickel Creek will provide plenty of inspiring bass. Traditional Bluegrass, like blues and raggae, is very stylistic with bass being a simple supporting instrument. Contemporary bluegrass may surprise you in it's diversity!

<SMALL>4)That high pitched "lonesome sound" with heavy twang sounds like a dog with its foot caught in a barbed wire fence</SMALL>

You mean, like Vince Gill!? or Ricky Skaggs? Bob Dylan once said that he would rather listen to an old Charlie and Bill Monroe record as anything! A matter of taste.

<SMALL>5)The format is so rigid: almost always fixed repeat of verse and chorus without variation or bridge</SMALL>

Listen to Alison Krauss, Blue Highway, Knoxville Grass, Seldom Scene, Dixie Chicks (yes folks it's bluegrass), Sam Bush. I would agree with you if you are only referring to older traditional bands and songs.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>6) Songs are almost always in G C or D
</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Not true! Most bands capo up to many different keys! Actually you would probably find the songs of most contemporary bluegrass bands difficult to chart. They use open tunings and "off" chords that I don't even know the names for!

<SMALL>7) Rigid repeat of melody, first with one instrument, then another, not leaving any room for a coherent creation of melody and countermelody where the total is better than the sum of the parts. (in a practice session, many are great at improvisation, but it doesn't come across in the performance or record)</SMALL>

Bluegrass music is best heard in informal jam sessions, much the same way as jazz and blues. It is difficult to capture the energy of a live jam session on a recording. The sterile environment of a studio and the problems associated with mic-ing acoustic instruments on a live stage inhibits creativity. Some of the most impressive music I have ever heard came out of live bluegrass jams in the parking lot or from a small smoke filled jazz club!

Bob, My perception is that your diet of bluegrass has been limited to classic or traditional recordings and bands. There is a lot more to bluegrass than most folks realize. And some bands have fused bluegrass with rock, country, jazz, reggae, and swing.

Bob, you failed to mention bluegrass lyrics! How come they always sing about some guy named "Willy" poisoning, shooting, or otherwise dragging his tue love down to the Ohio river to kill her!?!!

I don't have an answer for that one!



Terry

Jerry Garcia is the greatest banjo player that ever lived!

try the band I play in, The Wayfaring Strangers, on Rounder Records.

Diverse enough that everyone can find something to dislike!

The way I see it, you just haven't done
your homework.
If you choose to dislike bluegrass,
it is entirely up to you.
It will exist with or without you.

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Andy Greatrix on 21 November 2003 at 06:32 PM.]</p></FONT>

G, C, or D. That's a good one. The Osborne Brothers cut "Rocky Top" in the key of B. Real bluegrass players don't care what key it is they'll play it. Besides that's what capos are for.

Mike

if someone played in the bluegrass band for many years and stil can`t understand the beauty of that great acoustic music with the greatest musicianship and most beautiful singin, than something is very wrong with that picture.He was either in the very bad bluegrass band or he never made it to the level of the super picker and because of that he is frustrated and mad at all that bluegrass stands for.I love acoustic music and all of those statements above don`t make apsolutly no any sence to me at all.

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Other side of the coin.I played fiddle in a blue grass band before taking up steel.I never realized until much later how wonderful it was playing blue grass.Yes the music was very repetitious back in those days but such a pleasure to play.The singer or singers didn't have to have 40 monitors on the band stand to hear then selves and the lead players didn't need 500 watt amps to get above the rythem section.In fact no amps were used.No offense meant to any one.Just the facts.Best to all.Tracy

Terry and John- will take a look at your suggestions- thanks
Andy and Damir- i did do my homework- spent 20 years obsessed with it- but i think the reason i liked bluegrass,despite its shortcomings, was because it was the closest thing i could find to old time and Celtic music. I am much happier with these (and with rock and roll and country too).
If i had to summarize the biggest problem with bluegrass, it is that forced country twang so many put into the songs.That just bothers me a lot.Sounds so uneducated.
Agree wholeheartedly about parking lot picking- wonderful music.
Thanks to all for your responses.

Bob

Wow, I love bluegrass. I love the Dobro. It is amazing what can be gotten out of 6 strings and a straight tuning. Shoot, sometimes I amaze me and I am not even on the same planet with the likes of Jerry Douglas. Some of the greatest musicians I ever knew play bluegrass.
Jerry

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An interesting rant.
I was a bluegrass player for a long time. And kept playing after I found the steel.
It is a "genre" and its "rules" are very tight. Withing those parameters, it offers an interesting amount of freedom.
The think I found is that the players you play with make the difference. If they are creative, it will be fun. If not, it will be a slog.
I grew up playing bluegrass with the best-- David Grisman on mandolin, and Jody Stecher and/or Eric Thompson on guitar.
I've been blessed to play with Bill Monroe both officially as a BlueGrass Boy, and at informal gatherings. You want discipline? You get it when working with Bill.
If you get your head into the "bluegrass space" and the musicians are good, then it is great stuff.
And I'd rather listen to 1952 Flatt and Scruggs or Stanley Brothers than most modern stuff.
And I learned how to play steel listening to Hal Rugg with the Orborne Brothers...

JW

I love Nickel Creek.
If more bluegrass groups would apply drums & steel as the Osborne Brothers did, I would listen more.
The high shrieking gets on my nerves, however.
Theresa<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Theresa Galbraith on 22 November 2003 at 03:59 AM.]</p></FONT>

My 11 year old daughter plays fiddle, and is on a championship square dance team, and competes at bluegrass festivals (sorry, I had to brag, I am so proud of her). We make the circuit here in Tennessee and Kentucky from April to October, where we get to see some of the finest Bluegrass talent out there, Johnny Bellar(Dobro), Sierra Hull(Mandolin), and besides that, we get to eat some of the best BBQ in the world!

I used to play bluegrass banjo in my college years. I enjoyed playing bluegrass very much, but even when I was playing, I didn't care about listening to it....just playing it. Thank goodness there are a few professional and amateur groups alike that know the pitfall of every song sounding alike if you are not awfully careful. I did a benefit show with a throwed together band 2 weeks ago and there was a local bluegrass band on the bill also. They were very good...however...after they played an hour, except for one slow gospel song, I would have sworn they played the same song the entire time. This is my big pet peeve with bluegrass. I like almost any music when it is played well and bluegrass is no exception, but most of the time, my attention span is about 3 songs. Once I see that every song is going to sound the same, "I'm Outa Here!". It doesn't have to be that way, as some groups prove. I just wish there was more. I might even take up Dobro and join in!

When Josh Graves began his recording career with Flatt & Scruggs in '55, he introduced a dynamic dobro style that added a new exciting dimension to bluegrass. I'm sure most steel players appreciate the skill, creativity and sound he displayed on his recording then and still does today. Mike Auldridge has a great syle of his own, of course, everyone has to admire the great talent of Jerry. I enjoy bluegrass for several reasons, and one of the main ones is the great resophonic artists and music the style has brought to our attention.

Just had to add my 2 cents worth here..I played dobro for Sharon Graeff and her Heritage band out of Osborn, Mo. for a couple of years and we did songs in every key known..We did festivals all over the country and I really enjoyed it..I also play dobro now once in awhile with Johnny and Carolyn Vincent, Rhonda's mom and dad and Johnny can play banjo in any key without the use of a caypo. Their music is mostly traditional, but some of it is a challange. I've heard it said that a true Bluegrasser doesn't like country, but at the Sally Mountain show put on by the Vincents, we did a country show on Thursday night with Johnny on lead, Carolyn on bass, Lloyd on Rythm, Rhonda on fiddle and me on steel. The crowd all thought it was great, so I think most country fans like a little bluegrass. To me, good bluegrass is more demanding on the musician than country because when you are taking a lead ride, there is no electronic help, or anyone to cover your mistakes..Any way, I like both Country and Bluegrass and love to play both..So much for that.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I still like Allison Krause, Del McCoury, and the Osborne Brothers. Some great picking there.

"6) Songs are almost always in G C or D"

You forgot "A", and A's bratty cousin "E" show's up once in awhile.

And how would that differ from, say, country music? If it's written on guitar, it's likely gonna be in one of those keys. Keyboard songs lend themselves to such keys as Eb & Bb - - not optimum for opened tuned instruments like dobro & b*njo. Besides, you're talking about a genre of music that's structured on simplicity. The real fire comes from the performers.

As mentioned in other replies, contemporary bluegrass has knocked down most of the boundaries. Sometimes it's difficult to recognize the old bluegrass in the contemporary songs. Listen to some of the artists mentioned above - lots of new frontiers in today's bluegrass.

Gotta agree with Terry on this one! In my Blueground Undergrass days we got to tour with some of the greatest remaining bluegrassers and "newgrassers", and the depth of the musicality and passion in most of their music is beautiful and inspirational to say the least. Some of my fondest gigging memories are sharing the stage with Del McCoury, Vassar, Sam Bush, Peter Rowan, and many more. Monsters, and gentleman every one.

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Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com

My biggest complaint is the lack of dynamic range. Most bluegrass I've heard starts at one volume level and stays there. I find that annoying.

b0b, You make a point, however, the same can be said for Bob Wills western swing music!

Terry

And I just bought me a new 5 String !

And I keep practicin' them Banjo licks on the Tele' in several open positions..

Next thing ya know Kid Rock will be a Bluegrass Artist and then we will say "At least he had a Banjo in the Band "

You gotta love it.....

Ya' mean theres more than 1 chord in Rocky Top ? I better get the song book out...

TP

Not true, Terry. Think of "Faded Love" - the verses are quiet and the chorus goes full tilt. Western swing gets dynamics from its blues and big band swing roots. Any change in volume in a bluegrass song is probably someone's mistake!

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Sorry Pete, but hands down Bela Fleck is the greatest banjoplayer ever, and I realy love Jerry's playing. But Bela and Tony Triska smoke his drawers.

Alison Kraus is great for melodies for sure. Check out her "Too Late To Cry" album.

Nashville Bluegrass Band has melodies and alternate chords gallore, Blue Train is killer with harmonies over a C# minor chord.

And John McGann isn't pulling your chain either. His band Wayfairing Strangers is an excellent example of what bluegrass can be, and is in my all time top 10 acoustic albums list.

There are several schools of bluegrass, Parlour, Kitchen, Backporch, New Grass. Each has it's way of doing it. Each is correct within it's parameters. It is a style based from the Monroe band of 1946 to '48 aproximately, so it can't deviate too far or it becomes something else.

Some players are adamant to not veer to far from their type of bluegrass. I find that limiting, but that also depends on the band.


I also find bluegrass bass is limited, but that is partly, if done right, because of the tightly entwined rhythmic interaction in a good band. This in of itself is a very good thing.

But Roy Husky, and Edgar Meyer are really fluid players. Meyer is a clasically trained virtuoso.

No flys on him. Look for the "Appalacian" albums with him and fiddler Mark O.Connor and classical cellist Yo Yo Ma doing string trio versions of some classic bluegrass materiel and Steven Foster tunes. Some of it is downright scarey and awesomely beautiful too.
With Alison Kraus and James Taylor as sit-ins.

Between this and Wayfairing Strangers, you might change your tune a bit.

As for dynamics, there are some songs that traditionally are always played flat out, but many tunes require dynamics both in playing level in general and for individual players. If they are not doing it, it is a mistake.

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 22 November 2003 at 04:35 PM.]</p></FONT>