The Steel Guitar Forum

Couple of interesting comments I'd like to quote from our OWN "lap steel" forum...

"Players generally are not in the market for custom built steel guitars because of the expense and committment to a non-popularized guitar."

"Now I love my 7 string Rick...BUT, NO way is it substitute for my PSG. Nor is it for the vast majority of players on earth."


Guys, Our family has been in this over 30 years now. I looked Irby Mandrell, (Barbera Mandrells father and manager) in the eye 20 years ago and had him tell me "Pedel Steel Guitar is a thing of the past-the standard guitar player can play their licks just fine" and walked out of his office wondering if we were dead. We went through disco and punk rock. But there is a reason lap steel hasn't died, why it had a resurgence this last couple of years and made it on the cover of Guitar Player Magazine, why we've been invited to sit down with every one from Cougar/Mellencamp to Ron and Keith with the Rolling Stones...SOUND...there is a unique voice in a wood instrument without mechanical gearings and a steel body, that makes people smile when they hear it. Dad had the first Pedal Patents on the Steel Guitar (Guitar Player Magazine/March 1985/ The Melobar Story). There were 2 reasons he stayed with wood and got away from Pedals- Sound - and ability to move and be seen on stage- But by far SOUND was the key to him.

I know most of the guys on this part of the forum are new and not willing to step up to the above comments or are just not as opinionated as the PSG side, but don't let them slam your love...your wife maybe, but your Dog and your GUITAR?? We may be a small bunch of non-popularized guys, but who cares, we got the Sound.

I think that non-pedal has gotten a kick in the pants in recent years with the likes of Junior Brown, BR5-49, Wayne Hancock, Big Sandy, etc. Obviously, not burning up the charts, but it does seem that more and more younger bands are getting into the 50's rockabilly sound, and featuring lap steel.

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"You call that thing a guitar?"

The retrobilly fans are not the only ones rediscovering the sounds of the lap steel guitar. I've seen a huge increase in interest in the instrument due to players such as Ben Harper, Jerry Douglas, and David Lindley.
Add such players as Kelly Joe Phelps, Greg Leisz, and Rob Ickes to the mix and you've got a bunch of different people taking lap steel in different directions. (For the purpose of discussion, I am including both acoustic and electric players.)

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Brad's Page of Steel:
www.well.com/~wellvis/steel.html
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars

Don't forget the king of PSG Brad, Paul Franklin has been the most important promoter we have had this year using the Teleratt on over 70% of the "Players Special" and using the Melobro and Studio Ratt on over a dozen top ten radio songs this year. Ask him why...he simply wants the unique Sound.

I play Lap and PSG and it is my MYHO and belief that the Lap is gaining in popularity due to the price of a lap as compared to a psg. Couple that with the the fact that lap players in general are more expressive (the nature of the beast) and find it more adaptable to the different genres than most players/mechanics are capable of taking their psg to. Before anybody takes this as a slam, let me reassure you that is not the case here. Again, let me say, the tool is only as good as the mechanic.

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kd...and the beat goes on...

HI Ted; I guess I should reply to this topic since the quote you put up was from me.
I was only speaking of the non-pedal steel, that folks are very reluctant to go the "Custom" route. My steel is a custom non-pedal steel and not manufactured/assembly production quantity; and therefore entails much more expence in building.
I in no way was intending to slam the steel player as a consumer/un-popularized group; but I was refering to the guitars being made today and their non-popularized statis. If Jerry Byrd had an SS HAWAIIAN made for him and played it and loved it and then popularized it through word of mouth; than my guitar would then be popularized and sought after by many; but I couldn't and wouldn't fill the orders because in order to bring cost down for bulk production; I would have to alter the building/manufacturing process and that would send the SS HAWAIIAN out of it's Custom statis and it would loose it's original design and then be less of an instrument than it was intended with the original design.
I think the non-pedal steel is gaining ground in music today and I play and teach both pedal and non-pedal steel; but choose to teach the non-pedal steel over the pedal steel. I incourage my pedal steel students to play non-pedal steel also as the technique required to play it proficiently; will only add to their pedal steel playing and truely teach them the real aspects of playing the steel guitar that one will never find out just playing pedal steel.
I am doing everything I can to encourage the non-pedal steel and the life expectancy of; and I believe this section of the forum to be the "heart and soul" of the steel guitar forum.
Have fun.
Ricky


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Ricky Davis
http://hometown.aol.com/sshawaiian/RickyHomepage.html
http://users.interlinks.net/rebel/steel/steel.html
www.mightyfinemusic.com
sshawaiian@aol.com


<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Ricky Davis on 11 September 2000 at 02:55 PM.]</p></FONT>

<h2>Dying?.........It's not even sick!</h2>

There you GO Jim! That's been our feelings here for decades!

Hang in there Ricky-I sell very few guitars in the summer, no one in the industry does well in the summer but the Blue Grass builders. And I know the machine cost of that tuner pan you have on your guitar and the cost of the wood, don't believe one top player will make sales boom, I've had a Melobar close-up open the American Music Awards with Clint Black's "Good Run of Bad Luck", David Lindley's debut on MTV, Brooks and Dunns "Boot Scoot Boogie" opening with Melobar, none of it made a sales boom. Just do what you are doing, build a good instrument because of the love of it-you'll Never..Never, make any real money at it.. again, you got to do it for the SOUND.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Ted Smith on 11 September 2000 at 07:54 PM.]</p></FONT>

AMEN brother Ted.
Ricky

No one will EVER pry my (Melobar) CC8 away
from me...

There are many similarities in the lap vs. pedal debate as there are with another popular instrument.

In addition to non-pedal steel I also play the diatonic button (Cajun) accordion. Instead of a piano keyboard this instrument has a row of 10 buttons. This type of accordion produces a different note for a single button depending upon whether you are pushing or pulling the bellows. To play a scale or melody you must alternate between pushing and pulling. Basically a harmonica with bellows. A 'modern' keyboard accordion produces the same note whether you push or pull. The Cajun accordion is a much older, earlier design.

When keyboard accordions where invented many
people saw it as the demise of the button
accordion. Many keyboard accordion players
today still see button players as primitive and old fashion. Why struggle with in and out when all you have to do is play the keyboard? In fact, they even have keyboard accordions today that don't require working the bellows. Just play the keyboard!

People still play the Cajun accordion and many small factories are producing beautiful new instruments. Why do people still play it? One reason is that by pushing and pulling the bellows you get a much more rhythmic sound. A sound you can't get with a keyboard accordion. Also the limitations of the diatonic scale force the musician to come up with creative, rhythmic melody lines.

Any similarities here? I think so.

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Gerald Ross on 13 September 2000 at 06:14 AM.]</p></FONT>

OOOOOOOOOOH Gerald! Thank you, thank you, thank you.

I happen to love Cajun music. Cannot get enough of it nor the cajun people. I just love them. I once spent a week in Baton Rouge, La. And when I got in my rental car at the airport the radio was tuned to a cajun radio station. I never changed it for the entire time I was there!

I saw an Austin City Limits show a long time ago with the "Bo soleil" group. I know I got that spelling wrong . I got so intriqued with the accordian player and the fiddle player. Also the rhythm guitar player knocked me out when he took a break.

Later I saw this same band on a Mary Carpenter video and all I cared about listening to was that band.

And I had wondered until today what the buttons actually did on that tiny accordian.

Thanks soo much for enlightening me on a most uniquely played and sounding instrument.

I love it!

God richly bless you always,

carl

I don't know enough about the steel community in general to opine intelligently as to the short- or long-term popularity of the lap steel, but let me offer my own experience.

I am principally a songwriter, who plays guitar (6-string, Spanish style, steel strings, that is). But like a lot of folks, I guess, I also mess around with other instruments, including harmonica, bass, and most recently a "cuatro"--a little Puerto Rican guitar-like instrument. In other words, you could say that I like instruments--I find them interesting on several different levels. Well, my point is that when I first got interested in steel guitar (and the first draw was definitely the SOUND and the SOUND alone), one of the things that attracted me to the lap over the PSG (besides affordability) was the history and simplicity of the lap steel guitar. You know, some of the folks on this Forum are playing music on what are in fact some of the VERY FIRST electric guitars ever made! Even my relatively cheap 1937 Rickenbacher Model 59, which is all banged up and not worth much money really, is (in my eyes at least) kind of part of the history of the electric guitar, and consequently of the most important changes in music during the last century. Where would music be today without electric instruments?

I also love the fact that such killer tones come from such a little unassuming instrument. Beautiful clean tones, and when you want meaty distortion--stand back! It's so simple, and yet so expressive.

Now, I should also mention that I am 26 years old and, although I was raised on and still love Emmylou Harris, Willie Nelson, and other great country acts, I have to recognize that I do not fit the mold of the "average steel player" or the average Forumite. In fact, my musical tastes lean much more to the "alt country" side of country. And here my point is that, as a relatively young musician just now really discovering the steel guitar, I was naturally drawn to the lap steel! Maybe other young musicians feel differently, but for me the lap was an obvious choice, and if I ever learn to play the darn thing I'll be sure to share it with the rest of 'em (heck, I'll share it anyhow).

So, sorry for the long post from the novice of all lap steel novices, but I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents for the proposition that lap steel is here to stay. It may never be the most popular instrument, but then would we really want that anyway?

Keep slidin, slantin, bendin, and whatever else you can do on the lap steel,

Colin

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http://www.colinblack.com

The accordian analogy is a good one. Like the button accordian, the lap steel is harder to play well than its modern counterpart. But that fact isn't nearly so obvious with steel guitars. Many musicians actually think that lap steel is easier than pedal steel.

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<small><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Averybob.gif" width=64 height=81>Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session S-12 (E9), Speedy West D-10 (E9, D6),
Sierra 8 Laptop (D13), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (D13, A6)

Watch it! Accordion has only one "a."

By the way, there are some great non-pedal and funky one- or two-pedal Cajun steel styles if you dig a little. For those of you in the frozen north try the Bone Tones out of Minneapolis/St. Paul. Their steeler, Matt Haney, played a 2x8 Stringmaster for a long time, but I believe he switched to a Fender 400 (probably tuned to G major) a couple of years ago, I haven't kept up. Bet they have a website. Think their recordings are in the Elderly catalog too. Back in SW Louisiana (around Lafayette), a significant, although diminishing percentage of Cajun bands include steel. Almost none of the touring bands do. Wonder why? Check out Swallow records from the 50s and 60s.

To Bob Stone. Thanks for the spelling lesson, really, you're right. I look back on my posting and face is red (I work at a major midwestern university. This shouldn't happen. Reputation to maintain you know).

I went back and corrected the spelling.

Actually I have an old Hohner accordion that has the words 'Hohner Accordeon' printed on the front. Go figure.

Gotta go, time to practice my Lapp Stiel.
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Sorry I missed you in E.Lansing Bob.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Gerald Ross on 13 September 2000 at 06:15 AM.]</p></FONT>

It always intrigues me how musicians like to "argue" about the sound of their instruments. It seems that players get too attached to the sound of their particular instrument.

While shopping for a piano several years ago, I got the same thing from salesmen. "Why, Steinway/Bosendorfer/Yamaha/Baldwin is obviously the best sound". To which I say, balderdash.

If I had the money (and the space), I'd own one of each. There are certain songs that sound best (IMO) on each one of those instruments. There isn't one that's "best". Depending on the style of songs you normally play, one may be best for you.

The same way with guitars. There are just certain things you can't do on a non-PSG, for instance. (Well, OK, maybe a few great guitarists can come darned close).

And you just can't get that resonator guitar sound out of a PSG either (unless you've got a Pedabro).

BTW, Ted. That Melobro sounds GREAT! Thanks again. I don't know how I'm gonna learn it and the PSG (and the lapsteel) at the same time. But I'm gonna have some fun trying.

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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://members.xoom.com/dpennybaker/index.htm

It's almost like saying that Fords are dying because you drive a Chev. Lap steel wont die. I used my 10 string at the last convention I played at and it was well received. As a matter of fact there were others there as well. You just have to remember that you have to use you hands instead of your legs and learn to slant your bar. The main difference is the fact that you have to concentrate on the top of the guitar and pretty soon you will be able to see what's there.
.... Billy

Only thing has me scratching my head Bob is saying that the PSG is easier to play than a lap steel. In all these years I have always heard guys say that they are buying a lap steel because the PSG was too difficult for them. Maybe it's just what we are used to, like a Banjo player saying how hard the fiddle is to play, or, trying to get licks you learned on the pedal steel out of a lap steel...??

<SMALL>Only thing has me scratching my head Bob is saying that the PSG is easier to play than a lap steel.</SMALL>

Being completely new at this, I can offer some insight (I think).

The PSG certainly seems more difficult at first blush. After all, you are having to use both hands and both feet and both knees.

However, the use of levers and pedals makes it far easier (IMO) to play things like minor chords and add 6ths and 7ths, etc. Then again, I'm comparing my 12-string PSG to my 6-string lapsteel (which isn't exactly fair, I suppose).

Perhaps saying the PSG is more versatile than lapsteel (rather than easier) is the more correct statement. The ability to play a G-chord, for instance, at several different fret positions (through the use of pedals and levers) seems to be highly practical. As is the ability to move between a G, C, and D chord without moving to a different fret position, holding certain notes constant during the "slide".



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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://members.xoom.com/dpennybaker/index.htm

Non-pedal is MUCH harder to play.It's one thing to tune to an E chord and play bottleneck blues,but if you've got an 8 string E-13,B11,Junior Brown's or Joaquin's tuning etc,and you are really tring to get deep into the changes of a pop standard or something....good luck.Besides having a brain surgeon's dexterity at bar slanting and harmonics,you have to have a jazz guitarist's knowledge of scales and modes,harmony,chord substitutions,rootless chord fragments,etc and basically just know your tuning upside-down and inside-out.In short,there's nowhere to hide on a lap steel(especially one w/a 22 inch scale).Whereas,many pedal players get away with simply operating machinery by rote and have only a cursory understanding of theory.And as beautiful as pedal playing can sound,stomping on a pedal takes nowhere near the skill as executing a compound slant resolving to another compound slant.
BTW,I'd like to hear more about those Cajun 8 string,2 pedal guitars. Can anyone post a common copedant? -MJ-

Really interesting observations and opinions, and that is what makes this forum so valuable. I do have to say that the thing I've noticed in the conversations with the people I'm building for right now, is that what they are asking for from their lap steels, has nothing to do with complex chord patterns or any of the difficulties listed as making lap steel a hard instrument to play. May be it does come down to what you are really wanting musically, and maybe that goes along with what is being said above.

<SMALL>May be it does come down to what you are really wanting musically</SMALL>

It really does. If I could get the sound / voicings, bends, etc of the PSG from my keyboard, I'd have no reason to try PSG. Same thing for dobro.

The "limitations" of an instrument are what give it a certain type of style(s).

And, as far as difficulty goes, I think most instruments are playable if the player has to some extent the gift of music (more than I have) and really WANTS to practice and play.

I just atteneded a Bluegrass Festival up near Tulsa, OK. There was a particular band (called MountainHeart) I heard -- they were very good. The banjo player had stubs (literally) for every finger and thumb on his left hand except the index finger (and it appeared to be somewhat deformed, too).

That guy could pick a banjo with the best of them. His limitation on the fret-hand was non-existent to him.



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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://members.xoom.com/dpennybaker/index.htm

David, I completely agree with your sentiments regarding an artists conscience decision to us a particular "pallette" of colors.

I get a ton of mileage out of 6-string open E. Oh yeah, lush 4 voice jazz chords are out of the question but one can do a lot with two-note chord fragments. Even though I have the 2nd neck of my supersteel tuned to 6-string E13, I gravitate toward open E. I understand it and I feel more inspired by it.

Here's another example - my main instrument is lead guitar. I'm constantly bombarded by the "Digital Modeling Amplifier" guys who claim my modest rig of tube amp with a few pedals is obsolete and not versatile enough to gig with a modern band.

What's interesting (to me anyway) is that I quite deliberately stopped using a chorus pedal well over a year ago. I figured if that effect was that important to someone that they should just hire someone else 'cause I really hate that particular effect. No one's said boo to me during the past year about it.

I don't mean to get off topic, but I feel that this just underscores the necessity to follow one's own artistic vision and damn the torpedos!

Played a 1954 Fender Stringmaster on Fastball's new single "You're An Ocean". Lap steel is definitely alive and kicking.