The Steel Guitar Forum

I don't mean it's not very smart
The other night in Red River NM, I was in an all night jam with Lloyd Maines, Terry Hendrix, Michael Hearne, and Jimmy Statler. Boy, I was in heaven. Lloyd and I were swaping out Dobro solos and I couldn't help but notice how much louder and brighter his dobro sounded than mine. My Dobro is a "Dobro Custom", worth around $2,000.00 new. His is an off brand piece of sh*t that rings like a bell. I did have some dead strings which I replaced the next day, but I still believe his would out play mine in volume and brightness. What gives? I don't want to hear about "it's in the hands" thing. I know how hard I was picking with National picks. There couldn't be that much difference.

I've heard, although I do not know first hand, that a Quarterman(?) cone and a bone nut make a world of difference in the tone of your guitar. I understand Paul Beard at Beard guitars does this kind of upgrade if you send him your reso. You may want to check his site (www.beardguitars.com) for contact information. I'm hoping to do this to my Dobro someday.

Is your bridge Maple and ebony tipped?
Bone Nut?
Quarterman cone?
Is your spider level? (mas importante)
What about the tension screw..
and check out Paul Beard set up video from him and others for $39.95 (Resophonic Outfitters)


Jeff H

Looks like a lot of things to consider. What is a Quarterman Cone?
I've never tampered with the tension screw, but when I installed a pickup on the spyder, I did have alot of trouble with a bad rattle that I finally got out by turning the spyder. Also, how is the cone supposed to lay in the inset? There are a few dimples in the cone and matching dimples in the wood inset. I probably need to get that video on setting up the instrument.
Thanks for your input. Keep it coming.

Yeah, Chris, the Beard video is right up the alley you're asking about- straight ahead, to the point. He deals with all of the setup questions you have and then some. All of those little details make so much difference in the instrument tone...one of the things I'm so impressed with about the melobros is that although fibreglass construction is used for the body, all of the parts and set-up are with high quality parts- Quarterman Cone (Higher Quality spun aluminum than most stock stamped cones) bone nut, ebony capped saddles, etc. It makes so much difference...

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Mark van Allen-"Blueground Undergrass" Pedal, Non-Pedal, Lap, and Dobro

Chris:
Call Jim Yarboro (903-887-2926) in Gun Barrel City, TX. I met him at the Canton Bluegrass Festival this past June. He does exactly what you need (Quarterman cone, bone nut, ebony-capped bridge saddles) for $180.00. I'm bringing my '82 OMI dobro to him next week for the upgrades.
Good luck,
Randy

Were you playing a Spider Bridge "Dobro" and competing with a Biscuit Bridge "Dobro"? Biscuit Bridge cones are usually louder, but much less balanced in tone.

Here are excerpts from a message I posted in February 1999:

<font size="-1">The spider bridge style has an aluminum diaphragm shaped like a speaker cone that is deep in the middle. A cast aluminum piece (the "spider") with about 8 arms and a concentric ring half-way out from the center sits on top of the diaphragm, resting near (but not at) the edges of the diaphragm. The bridge is a solid area in the middle of the spider. A saddle for the strings is there. Actually, there are usually two saddles with a screw head between them. One saddle for the bass strings, the other for the treble strings. The screw head is on a long screw that attaches the center of the spider to the center of the cone. The screw is NOT a tone adjustment. Overtightening that screw will damage the cone. The screw just keeps the spider in position. The "spider" actually looks more like a spider web.

The biscuit bridge style has a similar cone, but it is inverted with the center near the front surface of the guitar and the edges further back. In the center is a round block of wood about 3 inches in diameter. That block of wood is the "biscuit". A slot in the biscuit holds the saddle for the strings. Thus, the biscuit is the bridge.

I have a spider bridge (round neck fretted) metal body Dobro. I have tried the biscuit bridge metal body types in stores, and to me they sound crummy - like the whole thing was built in a metal garbage can.

The biscuit bridge types are noticeably louder. If you plan to play in a band, the sound quality of the biscuit bridge type may be satisfying. As a solo instrument, not so great.

If the instrument has a wood body, the "garbage can" effect of the biscuit bridge style cone won't be as pronounced.

National and Dobro are the two early brands. They have similar but not identical designs for the cones and bridges. (Spider bridges may be Dobro only).

An interesting variation is the National "Tri-Cone", which has three small diaphragms and a heavy metal bridge that sits on all three cones. There are two cones on the bass side and one on the treble side. It is effectively a type of spider bridge. The National TriCone models always(?) have a metal body. The TriCone models have a more balanced tone and less of the garbage can sound.

Dobros come with either spider bridge or biscuit bridge.

Be careful you get the type you want. The brand name is not enough to identify what kind of bridge it has.

Just my opinions. </font>

I'll toss my dos centavos in here as I've got and have built all 3 styles.
In my opinion the difference in tone between styles of resonators is a result of the different loading and transfer of the string energy from the saddle (which in all three cases is wood) to the cone (aluminum in all cases).
The biscuit style is indeed the loudest of the three types, whether in a metal or wood body. In the biscuit style the convex cone carries quite a bit of downforce from the strings, effectivly energizing it. On the spider style the spider sits on the edge of the concave cone (and is attached in the center by a screw). In this case the energy from the strings has to pass first through the saddle, then the spider, then it is transfered to the edge of the cone. Compared to the light maple biscuit this a far less direct transfer of energy, resulting in less volume and a diferent tone. The tricone's (which was actually the first type of resonator system invented) three cone's are similarly loaded like the biscuit cone but because of the aluminum T-bridge the energy still has farther to travel and the three smaller cones create a much more resonant, reverb-y tone than the other styles.
The body material is a consideration. I have both metal and wood body biscuit cone guitars and also a metal tricone and a wood body, Weissenborn-style tricone. Interestingly the difference between the types of metal used (steel, brass and german silver) makes as big a difference tonally as the difference between metal and wood.
Chris even though you've got an upper level Dobro a Quarterman would likely help out, you may also want to try a National spider cone. Although I've yet to try one, in my experimentation in building single and tricone guitars, cones from National have been quite a bit better than the Quarterman's I've used. Paul Beards video is also a great resource.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Mike D on 21 August 2000 at 08:57 PM.]</p></FONT>

Another source of cones is Tut Taylor..there is some confusion though (on my part),some of their cones are Quarterman and some are by someone who works with or did work with Quarterman,,??anyone know?
Also I understand National may stop selling cones to competitors..only to National dealers and owners of National instruments..have not verified this but the rumor is widespread...

The set screw (tension screw) according to most builders should be 1/2 to one turn after
the head is set against the spider,,otherwords when the slack is taken up
then 1/2 to 1 turn...

But again strongly recommend the Beard video..you could buy the parts and the video
and the tools for less than sending it to a
repairmen/set up person..though if you are
unsure..that would be the safe bet..including sending the instrument to Beard or Scheerhorn..they will both do this set up as will others..

Good luck

JJH

My 2 cents worth would be considering string choice (if not considered already). I have always used bright phosphor bronze strings (and heavy gauge) as opposed to nickel, steel or bronze 80/20. All other bases have been covered.
Lefty

i've got a boring '75 dobro square neck that some surfer stripped the thick plastic coating off of and sold to me for $200 and it sounds great! i don't think i could replace it for under $1000.

The thing with a Dobro, of what ever name it is, takes several things to get a good sound and loud sound. My building and research comes out as:

1 The shelf the cone sets on HAS TO BE LEVEL... This can be done in several ways. I use a pin router system which has the body fixed by vacuum to a board that has the size of the cone on it which the pin following this and the pin router routs a perfectly flat ledge for the cone to rest on. To me this the most important part of all, as this IS the base of all the other things.

2 Next the spider has to be level to set on the cone. I screw it on to a board and use the pin router again and route ALL THE LEGS LEVEL. Check the legs by holding the spider to the cone in the body and load it with very little pressure with finger to the cone while the cone is in the body. Check under each leg with a piece of thin paper. There should be NO gap that the paper will fit under. You could hold the spider tighter and make it fit but let’s not cheat since you are wanting the best setup possible.

3 I don't find all that much difference in wood for the saddle insert, but I like the hardest the best: maple, ebony, aluminum and fiber glass all work well.

4 Next is the tuning, G, D, or what ever. The higher pitch will load the cone more and give the most volume and best sound.

5 The strings should be heavy, I use Martin Dobro strings. Heavy or medium give the most punch.

6 The tail piece needs to be low enough to put a good amount of pressure to the bridge, this is the only sound you will get. I do not believe the legs contribute to much very sound, it is the connection between the bridge and cone that produces it. Take the screw out and see what happens. When the instrument is tuned to pitch, adjust the screw at the bridge off until it rattles, than start to tighten until all the rattle in the cone is gone. Then adjust 1/2 or 1 turn to where you want. This setting can change in different humidity conditions, but not to tight or your cone is gone if it is bent. The instrument Norman Hamlet plays in the Merle Haggard band has not needed adjusting in the 6 years he has played it on the road.

6 The cone can be from any one of the cheap sources from Japan or China, and, if not bent, it will work well.

If these steps are used you will like your instrument. If you need parts or for me to set up your instrument, contact me and I will oblige.

Ron Frazier

Phone 541-567-5017

EMail robro@eoni.com

Ron,
What's the difference between the Martin Dobro strings that you like, and the strings we use on our pedal steels?

So far I haven't found Dobro strings that I can buy individually for my non-standard tuning.

<SMALL>So far I haven't found Dobro strings that I can buy individually for my non-standard tuning.</SMALL>

http://www.jpstrings.com

They sell them as singles. Any tuning you want.

------------------
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://members.xoom.com/dpennybaker/index.htm

I highly recommend these folks if you are stuck on brand names and want to save a lot of money!

NAME.: Euphonon Co
PHONE: (603) 353-4882
INFO.: PO Box 100A, Orford, NH 03777

They don't have a website, and you send them a check first (no credit cards). Their prices are unbeatable to the best of my knowledge.

Correction:

If you *aren't* stuck on brand names!

I appreciate all of the great response on this subject. Boy, I think I have too much info here, because I don't know where to start. I think I'll get the video and go from there, although I couldn't find the video on Beard's website.
I am certain that I have done something wrong by opening the resonator when trying different pickups. I had a real hard time getting a rattle out of the spyder after I closed everything up and restrung.
This brings up a question. When the Dobro is properly setup, how fragile is the instrument? Does the setup hold up being banged around on the road? Thanks guys.

Chris:
Stewart-MacDonald Guitar Shop Supply sells the Beard set-up video: www.stewmac.com
Randy

The strings I use are Martin as We are a Martin dealer.I started making dobros and just ordered these and found I realy like them. They are steel strings because of the magnetic pickups wont pickup the brass . I also like hevy strings as the more pressure on the saddle the more volum you get. They are 16-18-26-36-46-56 For diferent tunnings you may need diferent gages. ON Norman Hameletts 8 string the sizes are 12-14-17-20-32-36-42-50- and tuening is F#-E-C#-A-E-C#-A-C. If you buy gaaged strings you should be able to get any size you want.

Regarding cone quality per Ron's idea that inexpensive cones from the Orient work as well as other. In the 17 yeaers I've played and kept my resos up to snuff, this is definately NOT the case. Heard about 20 folks replace their original cone with a Quarterman which brought immediate big imoprovement in volume, tone, and sustain. Heard of more than 20 by this and other email lists. Jerry Douglas and Mike Auldridge both refer to this.
This is the point in everybody's reccomendation to upgrade the original cone in the new Regals. It made a dramatic diff in my 1970 rd neck Dobro. Dave

I'll second that. I've traded out several Q-man's and even my wife could hear the difference