Need advice

erik · Posted 9 Feb 2002 11:02 am

I just got my MIM Strat yesterday, which was a gift from my sister. I like the way it looks, feels, and plays. The problem is it just does not have the bite i want. Believe it or not my Rogue Strat sounds better(It twangs and screams. Good treble response). I've been trying to find a better quality guitar that has the same tone as my Rogue. Maybe it's just the combination of what i'm playing it through, but in any case i find my el cheapo Rogue to be greatly inspiring. It has spawned a whole new musical direction for me. So my dilemma is, should i return the Fender? Keep it to avoid hurt feelings? What happens when i make a recording and don't use it? How do i explain that?

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Change the pickups, But, keep the guitar, it was a gift from a special person. You are lucky to have a sister that clearly cares for you. Modifying the gift is one thing, getting rid of it is another.

TP

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 09 February 2002 at 12:17 PM.]

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 09 February 2002 at 12:18 PM.]

erik · Posted 9 Feb 2002 1:28 pm

Yeah, but i think it's more than pick-ups, i think it is just the tone of the wood. Right now i have the pick-ups height cranked high on the treble side. Would you give up your sound for the sake of a gift? If my souncard input was working i'd show you the difference. My Rogue twangs like nobody's business. It's addictive, that's how cool it sounds. Now, it is junk to play, not the most comfortable guitar. So, i'm looking. I've tried other Strat immitations, then came to a conclusion that a MIM would probably work for me. Well, turns out not to be so. I didn't ask anyone to buy this. I do appreciate the thought and effort. I just don't know what to do. Some day she will figure out i'm not using it.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Erik, it's a road you are on that you didn't ask for. yes, the wood is going to effect the sound big time as well. Only you can determine if you will offend her.Maybe if you discuss with her that the tone isn't quite right she will recommend bringing it back, after all she does want you to be pleased, thats why she bought it.

good luck
TP

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

I would keep the guitar because it was a gift and not hurt your sister's feelings. If it's the tone of the wood that's just not so bright, then changing pickups probably wouldn't help change it too drastically but you still might be able to....Got an ohmmeter? Turn all the volume and tone knobs all the way up, measure the resistance of each pickup. A Fender vintage-type strat usually has a pickup resistance of about 6200 ohms, some are around 7000. Find out what yours are. Check the ads and websites for Seymour Duncan, Bill Lawrence, etc, whoever you like who make vintage-type strat pickups. They usually show the d.c. resistance of their pickups. If you can buy a vintage-strat-type pickup with less resistance you'll have a sharper treble response, but you will also have a bit lower output. Since Strats have a pretty low output anyway this doesn't usually matter. Also, changing your volume and tone potentiometers from the stock 250K pots to 500K pots will also brighten it up. If you do that, check the pots before you buy them with your ohmmeter to make sure they read zero ohms when turned all the way up, if they read higher they'll lose some highs.

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

One more thing.....when you play, do you have the volume knob all the way up? If not, that might be the reason. Some guitar makers put a small capacitor on the volume control to bleed some of the high-frequencies to the output, so that when you turn the volume knob down you don't lose highs. Fender does on some models (the Japan-made ones usually did) and doesn't on others...I don't know if your strat does or not. Turn all the knobs all the way up and compare the two Strats again. If the Fender sounds more like the way you want it when it's all the way up, then you'll have to either play it that way, or add the little capactor, if that turns out to be the reason.

erik · Posted 9 Feb 2002 5:45 pm

I play with all knobs on 10. How would i hook a ohm meter to test my pick-ups? I really think it's the wood because they sound different acoustically. The thinner, cheaper, plywood strat is clearer and consistent. The MIM has some quiet areas, not dead spots, just very uneven compared to the Rogue. Like when you strum a chord some tones get lost.

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

Easiest way to measure the resistance of guitar pickups is just plug in a guitar chord into the guitar (use your shortest one) and hold the ohmmeter's probes on the plug at the other end of the guitar cord. One probe on the tip and one on the sleeve, doesn't matter which probe you put on what as long as you're only checking resistance. Set the ohmmeter to the 20K or 20,000 ohm range if it has one. Make sure all the guitar's knobs are all the way up, put the pickup switch on the neck pickup, then the middle, then the bridge. Don't read the in-between settings, they'll read about half of what the pickups themselves actually are. Might be interesting to measure the pickups in your Rogue too, just for comparison. Don't forget, even if it is the wood and the pickups are in the normal "bright" range of 6000-7000 ohms, replacing the pots in the
Strat with 500K pots will still brighten it up, I couldn't say whether that would be enough for you.

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 09 February 2002 at 10:42 PM.]

Earl Foote · From: Houston, Tx, USA

Trade the guitar in on a Made in America Strat with the same color scheme and Tell your sister how much you love your new geetar!

erik · Posted 12 Feb 2002 3:44 pm

Good idea, Earl. Accept my sister also plays guitar and would see that "Mexico" was missing from the headstock. Razz

I emailed her and said i liked it. I mentioned everything but the tone. LOL I'm going to bring it to a tech and get his honest opinion. The other problem, which i was unaware of until after i told her i liked Artic White, is that it is a plastic finish, unlike the others. This may be killing the tone. If i knew ahead i would have preferred black.

I'm thinking i might change it to stacked buckers and go with a more warm fat sound. Or maybe in the future i'll get a nice Alder body. The only problem with these solutions is that the "gift" ends up costing me money.

Geoff Brown · From: Nashvegas

You have a great sister, Erik. My brother doesn't even remember my birthday, let alone send me a card. Not knowing her, it's tough to have an opinion on your plight. If I were going to guess, I'd say she'd feel bummed (temporarily) if you leveled with her, but if you don't end up using it much, she'll always be wondering what's up. I always like to be up front with people whenever possible. I think it works itself out in the long run, especially with loved ones. Easy for me to say...she's not my sister

If you do keep the MIM, I would take the advice of others and put some decent pups in it. MIM's are not much of a guitar, unfortunately. Only so much you can do. Incidently, having your pups elevated close to the strings might make things worse. If you get them too close, they'll dampen the vibration of the strings, and it will just sound dead.
A suggestion...Fender no longer makes the American Standard strat. They are replacing it with the American Deluxe or something like that. Used American Standards can be had at a decent price. Always a few on eBay, and they seem to go for around $500 USD if they are a few years old. I think they are a very good buy for the money. Most of them are alder bodies. Your MIM is probably basswood, or who knows what.

[This message was edited by Geoff Brown on 12 February 2002 at 07:05 PM.]

Tom Olson · From: Spokane, WA

Try to see if you can find a MIM strat that has had different pickups installed in it and see if you can play it or at least listen to the owner play it. I think you'll find that the pickups in a guitar make up a majority of the uniqueness of it's sound. The wood may affect it, but it's really the pickups that do the most. The MIM strats tend to have a "hotter" type pickup than the classic strat sound that it sounds like you're looking for. I think you'll be sorry if you get rid of the guitar and then find out later that you could have changed the pickups and had the exact sound you're looking for. There are a number of sources for good aftermarket single-coil strat pickups (including Fender itself). They all have different sounds (mostly), so you'll have to do some homework to figure out which ones are the ones that will give you the sound you want.

Ken Lang · From: Simi Valley, Ca

I'd hang on the the MIM, not only because of the gift status, but some ways down the road it might be the sound you're looking for.

erik · Posted 17 Feb 2002 12:15 pm

I tried getting with it again today. It's just not happenin'. While it is well built (can't find any flaws), the sustain is poor, and it posseses no tonal character. I don't know if pick-ups can help this. Maybe a bridge with more mass? It has .009s, i do prefer .010s. Maybe that might help a bit. It's just ironic that my cheap Rogue Strat has life, and has perfect string balance in all positions - even with staggered poles, AND if i adjust the pickups up or down, but this more expensive, better made MIM has nothin'. Just bizarre. Maybe it's the polyester finish.

Tim Rowley · From: Pinconning, MI, USA

Hi Erik,

You asked some questions. I assume that you are serious so I'm responding. A word or two about my background. I can tell that you and I are as different as two Fender players can be. I'm a Telecaster player, switched to Tele's 28 years ago, can't stand to play a Strat but I do know some things about them just the same. I'm also probably 100 years older than you and at least 18 inches shorter. I grew up in rural northern Michigan, up here where rubber boots are still in style for manly footwear, where we have no cities and no money and very little pavement and probably very little of interest to you. I've played in all types of live venues and done only a little recording over the past 30 years. So you don't have to pay attention to anything I say if you don't want to, but maybe it might profit you to listen to the muttered ramblings of an old man for a minute or two.

The best-sounding Tele I own is a Japanese copy, a 1989 Fernandes with Seymour Duncan "Broadcaster" pickups, CTS pots, and an Ernie Ball switch. It's got a cheap basswood body and a maple neck with Sperzel tuners. The second-best is my 1967 Fender Telecaster with Schecter pickups, Allen-Bradley pots, and an Ernie Ball switch. It's got an ash body and a maple board neck with Sperzel tuners.

Now, the worst-sounding Tele I own is the one I use all the time. It's a 1992 MIM Fender Telecaster with Seymour Duncan Alnico II pickups (had to use 'em, everything else was too bright), import pots, and a Fender factory replacement switch. It's got an unknown HARD hardwood body, a maple neck, and Schaller-built Fender branded tuners. Why do I use it all the time if it sounds so bad? Because the PEOPLE prefer it, it sounds more "modern" and "cuts through" better and if there's anything a Tele is supposed to do is to cut through, right? But please understand that I can get "my sound" with any standardly configured Telecaster or any clone thereof. If it ain't on the guitar, I can dial it in on the amp. Now on to your questions.

Question #'s 1 and 2: "Should I return the Fender? Keep it to avoid hurt feelings?" My answer is NO to both. In the first place, the obvious, why are you looking a gift horse in the mouth? In the second place, keep it BECAUSE it's different. WHY would you EXPECT a MIM Strat to sound like a Rogue? Of course it sounds different. As different as a Chevy and a Ford. And I'm sure you know that neither of these guitars sound the same as a boat-neck 1955, which sounds completely different than a 1975, and that there are no two early 1980's Strats that sound exactly the same as each other. SO WHAT? So you have options. You can either make changes to the MIM and try to make it suit you, or learn how to get your sound with it the way it is currently, or use it to create "NEW sounds". Should you decide to make changes in the guitar, here's what I would advise: 1. Good US-made pickups (such as Rio Grandes or Bill Lawrences) mounted on short pieces of 1/8" vacuum hose instead of springs, and adjusted well down and away from the strings. 2. Good US-made 500K pots, good wiring (wire it yourself and be sure), a good switch, and good shielding. 3. Good nickel-wound strings in gauges .010 - .046.

Questions #3 and #4: "What happens when I make a recording and don't use it? How do I explain that?" My answer is another question: Do you only try to get one sound, no matter what you are recording? OK, well then if you only want that one certain sound, and can ONLY get that sound on an "el cheapo Rogue" Strat, you'll never get anywhere in this business. IOW, learn how to get your sound on any Strat there is. Look at all the different guitars George Harrison recorded and played live with, and still sounded exactly like, well, George Harrison. Hmmm... As to how to explain something to your sister, what's wrong with not explaining anything to her at all? If my sister ever asked me to explain my actions (which she never has) I'd tell her the truth as kindly as possible and not worry about it for one second. She's my sister, after all. Come on, Erik.

Harsh words of advice from an old codger, I know, harsh and ornery but true nevertheless.

erik · Posted 18 Feb 2002 6:05 pm

Thanks for the comments, Tim. I appreciate your experience. First, i am not trying to get anywhere in this business. I am a hobbyist. However, I am working on some songs that fall within one style which includes my "sound" (the Rogue has it, but just a little bit on the thin/planky side) . If i get enough material and improve my playing, perhaps i can handle a one man show kind of gig. I have no desire to be in a band, nor do i have the time. I am up to something, and hopefully i can get it together in the near future to share with people here.

Second, i am not very young. Like John Conlee sings, "I'm on the backside of thirty..." LOL

Tim Rowley · From: Pinconning, MI, USA

OK Erik!

Tim R.

Johan Jansen · From: Europe

Eric, a gift is something special from someone that's very fond of you. Always be aware of that, and be honest.
Would you hurt her if you told her about the sound?
Can't you use this special guitar for special songs or occasions?
Good luck !
JJ