Broilers vs real artists

Anders Brundell · From: Falun, Sweden

Last night I watched a country music documentary starring Keith Harling and Dale Watson – with Ricky Davis in there in scattered frames as well. It was on K-world, a popular science kind of cable channel over here, with lots of music and local stuff in it – in this case swedish stuff - and I don´t know if they broadcast anywhere else. Anyway – it was really interesting to compare Dale´s struggle for genuine, real music with the Harling project´s work with promoting a whole pak of a totally styled and made up cowboy, making music that is designed to sell, rather than to be good and genuine country music. Dale went for good, genuine country music, the Harling project went for sell-as-much-as-possible-by-all-means, virtually regardless of what happens with the music.
The picture of a real singer versus an industrially manufactured broiler was obvious.
Now I DO NOT want to run down on Keith Harling – I´m sure he does his very best, and both him and his whife seemes to be quite nice, ordinary people. That´s the picture that the documentary brings, and I don´t doubt that message.
What makes my mind slant (that´s a home made translation of a swedish expression for getting annoyed) is the fact that it obviously pays much better to crawl for the market than to persist with making good, honest and genuine music. In a way one can say that a fair amount of musical prostitution is necessary to make it in music USA, and that´s really no compliment to that market.
Dale once turned down a deal from a big record company because they demanded that he should actually deform his music and be quite another singer/artist than he is. If he went the crawl-for-the-company-bosses way he would – no doubt – be much better off economically today than what he actually is.
Maybe it´s time for a musician´s jihad against the music terrorists on the market.

Anders Brundell, Falun, Sweden

Janice Brooks · From: Pleasant Gap Pa

This was a special on Bravo network US first broadcast back in 1998.

Intersting to note the change in Spouses labels etc these guys have had since then.
Bob move this over to Music

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Janice "Busgal" Brooks
ICQ 44729047

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

I find the whole concept of one approach to music or art being more "real" or better than another to be be delusional at best.

I have met plenty of phoney jerkoffs that say they are into real country and plenty of hard core pop comercial performers that are as genuine and truly heartfelt as they could be.

To insert the value judgements of good versus bad or real versus fake between musical forms has little or no meaning to me.

I leave that crap to people that would rather talk about music than make it.

Bob

Jeff Evans · From: Cowtown and The Bill Cox Outfit

Bob, you better be nice or Santa may not bring you that genuine, heartfelt music by the great American artist, Britney Spears.

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

The sad fact is, "hardcore barroom country" is dead commercially. Nashville and the plethora of rockers there have seen to that. But that is what Nashville and the "country" music stations are promoting.

Many people will still come to "hardcore barroom country" shows - and they are hungry for real country. Just would be nice if those, such as Dale Watson, could displace some of the rockers.

Anders Brundell · From: Falun, Sweden

The concept of quality in music is certainly not delusional! It´s very real and also well worth to keep well and alive, and often written about on this very Forum. Look under ”Time capsule” for example.
Countrary, I´m sure that the term ”real country music” is very important to most Forumites and country music lovers in general. Doug Sahm´s line ”Oh no, not another one!” in a song on his last CD, defending real country music against country-pop, as well as the work of Dale Watson and thousands of other people who are really concerned of the ongoing deluting and bungling of country music, tells me that I´m not the only person on earth who values good, true and real country music.

I strongly suspect that Bob´s hostile eruption depends on something else than a noble wish to defend music and arts as a whole against sinister attacks from northwestern Europe, but I can´t really tell what, since my first post doesn´t contain anything injurious – or does it?
Please tell me, in that case! If your reasons and arguments are better than ”I leave that crap to people that would rather talk about music than make it”, and insinuations that everyone not sharing your opinions are victims of delusion at best, I´ll certainly listen.

I´m honestly unpleasently surprised by Bob´s fierce reply. I didn´t expect something like that on this otherwise pleasant Forum.

Anders

Gene Jones · From: Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)

Some of these comments remind me of my friend, Antonio Rosales' prophetically named new album, "Times Running Out"......It's a Price/Strait sound-alike with John Hughey & Sonny Garrish on steel, with a complement of top-notch studio musicians and should be on every musicians shelf....but will you ever hear it? Probably not because, "Times Running Out"! www.antoniorosales.com

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Sorry if I came off too harsh sounding.
I find that no particular form of music is better than any other. I listen to music without spending any time deciding if it is valid artisticly based on what catagorie someone might put it in.
There is something to be gotten from most every sort of music.

Dale Watson is great and I love his band. He is great because of the quality of his music. Not because of the kind of music in my view.

Music speaks directly to my heart. And when I play I hope I am comunicating directly with the heart of the listener. To add a filter of objective judgement to the experience weakens or destroys what is important about music to me. If I am spending time deciding if the sounds I am hearing are good or bad or that they fit into a catagorie that I have indentified myself with that means I am not really listening.

If want a bunch of guys to complain with about how everthing sucks these days this forum is a great place. It seems foolish to me though.

Bob

Gregg Galbraith · From: Goodlettsville,Tn.,USA

Bob,
I agree!

[This message was edited by Gregg Galbraith on 07 December 2001 at 09:38 PM.]

Anders Brundell · From: Falun, Sweden

Bob:
It´s perfectly OK to have different opinions, for the simple reason that that´s no reasonable cause for civilized peaople to get hostile and unkind about. I understand your opinion and fully respect it, and I don´t want to fight with you because of it.
The fact that my house is yellow doesn´t necessarily mean that I hate and want to fight people who have painted their houses in other colours, and the fact that I like pancaces more than meat balls is no source of anger either.
I suggest that we all, who are active here on the Forum, respect each others natural human right to have different opinions, and that we do not exchange fierce and insinuative replies that are intended to punish people with different opinions – is that OK?
I sure felt bad when I read your first reply, and if I would see that kind of replies often on the Forum, I would sure quit, regardless weather theese replies were aimed at me or not.
Anders

Jason Odd · From: Stawell, Victoria, Australia

Regardless Bob has a point, like how do you get to define what is good, honest and genuine music?

Hey, I'm a big fan of Dale & Co. and I don't get me wrong I think most chart country is as inspiring as a plastic spoon, but I think Bob had an interesting point and pretty much everyone missed it entirely. (IMHO)

Someone mentioned that the plethora of rockers have taken over, uh.. sure but imagine what Buck Owens version of 'Memphis' did to infuriate country fans in the mid 1960s, not to split hairs or anything, what one person might think is rock is another person's personal fave country record.
Whereas what I might consider rock might actually be white noise to others.

[This message was edited by Jason Odd on 08 December 2001 at 09:26 AM.]

Johan Jansen · From: Europe

Anders and Bob,
I agree with the both of you. I'm a Dale and Bob addict

!

Anders Brundell · From: Falun, Sweden

Jason and Johan: Oh yes - Bob has a point, and so do I, depending on how you look at it – and both ways are quite right and can exist alongside, whithout clashing. Bob could very well be entirely right and I could be entirely wrong, actually.
I guess one can paraphrase an important part of Bob´s reply ”Listen to music with an open mind, whithout prejudices, and you´ll probably find it virtually impossible and/or meaningless to try to cathergorize what you´ve heard in terms of real, good, bad et cetera – it´s just a matter of personal taste” – and that sure makes sense to me. What I reacted against is the harsh tone in his first reply. After all we´re fellow pickers, and we should try to be reasonably considerate to each others here on the Forum (and elswhere too).
I´m well aware of that it´s hard to get an all mutual definition of what´s good, genuine country music, and also that that definition changes over time, but my guess is that a poll where we list our 25 or so favourite songs here would give 15 or so songs, that we all can agree on. Now, that will inevitably be a subjective opinion, but that´s OK, ´cause we won´t have a too bad taste on music all put together, will we? I can´t beleive that, anyway. But I admit that my method has a subjectivity problem that Bob´s doesn´t.
Anders (who doesn´t really make good country music, even though I try to)

Anders Brundell · From: Falun, Sweden

PRESS STOP!
I just got a very nice mail from Bob that explaines it all - it´s just a mistake, probably caused by some inevitable cultural differences - I really don´t know as much about USA as I would like to.
Thanks a lot Bob! Everything is well!
Regards!
Anders Brundell

Paul Graupp · From: Macon Ga USA

I was struck by Jack's comments ! I still play in a bar where I have been for the last 20 years, off and on again. It is one of 3 or 4 still doing this music in the central GA area. Down from say 30 or 40 some years ago.

What has changed is the applause we get. I'm not used to that ! People used to dance and make requests for songs and then go back to sittin' N drinkin'. Now they stand and applaud and I'm thinking "Wow; but Why ?" I have been playing these same songs generally for years and years, you do 'em til you get them right one singer told me. Why do they applaud now ?

I think because what Jack said is dead on !!

Regards, Paul

Anders Brundell · From: Falun, Sweden

I hope Jack and Paul are right - that the pedelum is swinging back now, and people are hungry for real country music after hearing too much fluffy country-pop for too many years. 10 years from now I´m a retiree, and I really concider moving to country music USA, at least for a while.
Anders

Paul Graupp · From: Macon Ga USA

Anders; I spent over 7 years in europe in the 60s. When I came home I was the stranger in a foreign land. It took a long time to get readjusted to stateside life. But what catches me most nowadays is this new computer I write on. I'm just now beginning to realize what I lost being away from the American Music scene for all those years. There is a void in my music that will never be filled. I had the time of my life playing and traveling throughout Germany, France, Holland and England but still......

Regards, Paul

Gene Jones · From: Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)

Paul I understand about those "gaps". Not only did I not play between the years 1970 and 1982, I didn't listen to music either.

Even though I have since played most of the material that was born during that period, I still occasionally draw a "blank" when someone unexpectably "calls" something from the 70s.

Robert · From: Chicago

Bob and Anders:
You are both right. Anders, yes, there is a machine that is selling the idea that one artist deserves to be heard more than another, and there often seems to be little justice in the outcome. Why don't we hear George Jones or Johnny Cash on the radio? Maybe somebody thinks of them as artists without futures - icons only of the past. We just think of them as artists, and it bothers us - this is natural for musicians, I think. Bob - you're right, too. Any kind of music that touches your heart is worthwhile - Jan Howard to Judy Garland. If it's heartfelt, it's usually "good". This is how I understood your point. But let's agree on this, then: music that is less than heartfelt, or has at it's heart love of profit BEFORE love of music is also bound to NOT be very good, even if the musicians themselves are the nicest people on the planet. They become victims of the machine - but it pays their bills. And that probably beats a lifetime of heartfelt obscurity in a lot of their books. Hey - maybe mine, too.

Rob Yale

[This message was edited by Robert on 09 December 2001 at 04:26 PM.]

Anders Brundell · From: Falun, Sweden

Very good wording, Robert!
Anders

Anders Brundell · From: Falun, Sweden

Paul: I can imagine what it must be like. It´s impossible to be updated and familiar with everything when you´re physically away from a place for a long time. When I was a sailor I noticed that many important things changed during just half a year or so, when I was away.

Anders

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

I have been playing in the bigger country music dance halls in New England for last year and a half and have found that outside of urban areas people don't seem to like traditional country very much. We play Brooks and Dunn and they all get up and do the whatever it is Hokey-pokey line dance. When we play a straight up country tune they sit down and start talking to each other. Sometimes a slow country ballad works but I think they like those just so they can play grab ass on the dance floor ( Conjuring mental images of unspeakable horror while I'm trying to play. ).

Bob

Robert · From: Chicago

That's interesting, Bob. And not something that I had considered - I might have thought that it would split more along generational lines. So - what you're saying is that the big city is the last bastion of pure country?
Strange, indeed.

Rob Yale

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

There is no last bastion of "pure country" whatever that might be in NYC. Its more like a cultural relic that people are into. Like Big Band Swing or Klezmer music.
There are plenty of places in NYC to hear and play those types of music also.

Bob

Robert · From: Chicago

Bob:
Ditto for Chicago - I guess that's it: there's just MORE of everything - like a cultural smorgasbord, right? So, therefore, yes - you'll have a certain segment of that population that will know who Johnny Horton is, and a smaller segment yet who are willing to go onto a bandstand to play him. I went to a friends show at a VFW a couple of weeks ago - wall-to-wall retirees, of course, dancing and having a good time. The band did MUCH classic country and still managed to fill the floor - but there was the obligatory "modern" boot-scoot line dance tune - and then it just looked like an aerobics class or something!

Rob Yale

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