The Steel Guitar Forum

I have 2 Country Gents. One form 1967, the other from '73. Both say Chet Atkins on them. Both are great guitars, but very different from each other. The '67 has the painted F holed Gretsch is famous for, the little rubber mute that goes between the bridge and the bridge pickup, and the viny pad that snaps on the back. Also, the neck joins the body at the 14th fret.

The '73 (which was made by Baldwin) has real F holes, no mute, no vinyl pad, and the neck joins the body at the 17th fret, which IMHO is a big improvement.

I feel that the '73 is the better of the two.

At any rate, what part did Chet play in the designs of these guitars?

Mike, I have no idea, although I know he was involved with the design - or at least what he wanted on the guitar. I had a 61 PX6120, which is back before they had names. It didn't have a mute on it, just the Bigsby tailpiece and the moveable bridge (which was a pain in the butt). It had real F holes and did not have the pad on the back. I always thought that model had a lot better tone than the later ones with the painted F holes and the pad on the back.

I always looked at the newer models, with the painted F holes as a more commercialized model.

If I ever came in to some money and could buy another it would be the older model with the real F holes.

<SMALL>It had real F holes and did not have the pad on the back. I always thought that model had a lot better tone than the later ones with the painted F holes and the pad on the back. </SMALL>

Jack, I also prefer the tone of the one with the real F holes. But I like them both. The mute on other one gives off a unique marimba like tone that can't be acheived any other way. Unfortunately, the mute makes the whole guitar sharp, but I just re-tune when I use it.

Unlike other companies, Gretsch constantly changed the design of thier guitars. The Country Gents from the 50's have a single cutaway. Soometime around 1960 the company redesigned the guitar and made it a double cutaway, but they kept the neck heel at the 14th fret. The guitars from around '64 and '65 have 2 mutes, each covering only 3 strings, that operated independently from each other. By '67 (the year mine was made) they switched to a single mute covering all 6 strings. By '69 or '70 they abandoned the mutes altogether, and 2 or 3 years later when Baldwin bought the company they went back to using real F holes, and moved the heel of the neck. But today (now that the company is back in the hands of the Gretsch family) their version of the guitar (which they call the Country Classic) has the painted F holes, and the neck heel is back at the 14th fret. (A mistake in IMHO)

I feel that both are outstanding instruments, and especially well suited for playing finger style. (Chet's influence?) It's kind of a shame that they have fallen out of fashion. I really like mine a lot.

Mike, my 61 PX6120 was still the single cutaway. However, they also made a smaller body "solid body" model. I don't remember if it was double cutaway or single.

I'll talk to everyone later. I'm taking my system down for moving.

Maybe Jack is referring to the "Roc Jet?" That is about the size and shape of a Les Paul. I think although it has no F holes there could be a sound cavity in it. At least the mid-seventies model that I've had some experience with seemed to.

They sound neat, but if you want to bend strings and play a blues-rock style, they aren't designed for that. But, that's not why someone would want a Gretsch anyway, to me.

You might would like to pose your question at: http://fretboard.org/bbs/wwwboard.html.

Paul Yandell is a frequent contributor and he is usually assumed to be the authority on most things related to Chet Atkins. If he doesn't know an answer, there are usually several others who do.

Regards,

Randy

Mike, I used to own a Country Gentleman. I
bought fairly cheap, because the reason was,
the 'neck heel' as you refer to, on this guitar was fairly warped and thus it was basically unplayable from about the 12th fret and up.

So I took it over to a local luthier who did excellent work and what he did was actually plane down the 'heel' section, recut fret divots, and refretted the entire guitar. The fretboard was ebony and the axe was a sunburst finish. It played beautifully
after that. It was a rather large and deep bodied model, and had real 'F' holes. The
tuners were the old gold-plated Grovers that
were the 'stepped' style.

But like as all things turn out, I traded it in against some other guitar, a Martin D-35,
I think.

A friend of mine around here had a small- bodied Gretsch as was mentioned previously. It was orangey in color and was a real beauty
to play. I think for a while there, Neil Young played one of these Gretsches, back in the early Buffalo Springfield days.
FWIW


<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by CHIP FOSSA on 30 July 2001 at 01:41 PM.]</p></FONT>

<SMALL>back in the early Buffalo Springfield days. FWIW</SMALL>

Y'know there's somethin' happenin' here, what it is ain't exactly clear... <font size =1>(Thought you could slip this one past me, dincha, Chipster? )

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www.jimcohen.com

Ah. The Buffalo Springfield. Now THERE was a great band. I think they were the first rock band to integrate country music into it's sound.

There is some footage of Crosby Stills Nash and Young performing back in the 70's with both Neal Young and Steven Stills playing Gretsch White Falcons.

Don't get me wrong, I like my tele, but there is something special about those Gretsches. They just have so much class.

One has to wonder why they are not more popular.

I had a Gretsch Tennessean that Shot Jackson worked on for me. Shot gave me the tour upstairs and showed me all the Gretsches from all over the country that he was working on. I treasure the time I got to spend with him uninterupted about 1/2 hour. Just braggin'! nanny nanny boo boo! Larry

Many of the features of the Gretsch Chet Atkins Series of Guitars, of which the Country Gentleman was the top model, were based on Chet's ideas.  Other features were added by Gretsch without Chet's approval.  Jimmie Webster of Gretsch came up with the padded back, the muffler contraption, and some other odd items.  The muffler sometimes was one for all six strings, and sometimes two for three strings each.  Chet never used that gadget - he used the heel of his right hand laying on the bridge.

The top-of-the-line Gretsch White Falcon models are Jimmie Webster creations.

Chet did ask for the closed F-holes, and the zero fret.  Before Chet had the zero-fret idea, he had Gretsch installing a metal nut.

Chet hated the original DeArmond pickups that Gretsch was using, and had his friend Ray Butts invent a new pickup.  Ray's pickup was a humbucker, and became the Gretsch FilterTron pickup.  About the same time Seth Lover at Gibson invented his humbucking pickup.  Both Ray and Seth have patents on humbucking pickups.  Neither knew the other was inventing a humbucking pickup.  Gretsch and Gibson decided mutually to let both patents stand.  Ray Butts claims he actually invented his first.  Ray is still around.  Seth Lover passed away in 1997.

Some features Chet asked for from Gretsch he never did get, like more solid bracing inside for more sustain.  The relationship with Gretsch was always difficult for Chet.  Chet did most of his recording from 1959 to about 1983 or so with one particular 1959 single cutaway Gretsch Country Gent.  He would play newer models in concerts, as part of promoting the sales of the guitars.  Chet sent that 1959 Gretsch and four other guitars to the Country Music Hall Of Fame a few weeks before he passed away.

The stories about Chet Atkins and Gretsch could fill a book.

Fred Gretsch sold the company to Baldwin in the late 1960's.  Baldwin messed the company up in many ways.  Moved manufacturing to other states, suffered two factory fires, lost most of the people, and built a lot of junk.  Finally the whole thing went bust.  Another Fred Gretsch who was maybe 20 years old at the time Gretsch was sold to Baldwin managed to eventually recover the rights to the name and products lines, and has rebuilt the company over the last 20 years.

I agree with Mike that the change in neck mount of the double Cutaway country Gent (which happened under Baldwin) was an improvement.  That feature is still available on a few of the new models.  During the Baldwin era Gretsch managed to drop some of the silly Jimmie Webster gadgets.  Personally I prefer the closed F-holes of the older models and the zero fret which began to disappear in the Baldwin era.

I agree with Mike that "there is something special about those Gretsches. They just have so much class."  Most Gibsons are better made, but there is just something about a Gretsch that other guitars don't fulfil.

Chet stayed with Gretsch until the elder Fred Gretsch passed away.  He felt he owed it to him.  But Chet was quite unhappy with the Baldwin era guitars from Gretsch.  He was never entirely happy with any of their guitars.

The first Gretsch Chet Atkins model in 1954 was decorated with all sorts of "western" paraphenalia, like a horseshoe inlay, and a belt-buckle tailpiece, and a big "G" brand on the guitar body.  Chet didn't ask for any of that, and was somewhat shocked by it.  That was Gretsch marketing in Brooklyn NY trying to guess how to sell guitars to a "country" clientele.  The orange color of the early models (not the later Country Gents) was Fred Gretsch' idea, but Chet approved that.

The whole thing began with Chet being approached several times by Gretsch about endorsing a guitar.  Chet kept telling them he didn't like their guitars, so they finally asked him to design one.  He did, and they built a prototype, and it went from there, with Gretsch sometimes listening to Chet's wishes, and sometimes going off on their own tangents.  Chet called Les Paul to find out what royalties he should get.  As far as I know, that arrangement was never disclosed.

The model name "Country Gentleman" is taken from a tune Chet composed and recorded in 1953.  Chet claimed that name belonged to him.  When Chet switched to Gibson, where he had a somewhat less strained relationship, he let Gibson make a "Country Gentleman", that is pretty much a Gibson-ized copy of that 1959 Gretsch Country Gent.  The present Gretsch company does still make the guitar, but under the model name "Country Classic".

If you want to know a lot about Chet's guitars (Gibsons old and new, D'Angelico, Del Vecchio, Gretsch, Martin, Hascal Haile, and others), there is a great book on that subject which was released this past April, just a couple of months before Chet died.  It is expensive ($150.00), but is quite well done, with good writing, lots of Chet's comments and stories, and extensive well-done photography throughout.  Most of the photos were taken recently in Chet's home and in his office.  The book is "Chet Atkins - Me And My Guitars", and has to be purchased directly from the publisher Russ Cochran.  Here's a link:
http://www.russcochran.com/Chet_Book/chet_book.htm
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Richard Vogh on 30 July 2001 at 03:55 PM.]</p></FONT>

I believe the first Gents ca. 1957 had a solid block of wood through the center ala Gibson 335, due to Chet's request to increase sustain and reduce feedback. There is a good Gretsch Forum online at: www.gretschpages.com
DD

Thanks Richard. I appreciate the time you took to answer my question.

I am a little surprised to learn that Baldwin made some bad guitars. My '73 country gent is a gem. As I said earlier, I prefer it to me '67 which was made while the Gretsch family owned the company. I've only seen one other Baldwin era Gretsch, a BLACK falcon, which is structually identical to my country gent. The difference is the black color and gold trim.

Could it be that they concentrated on their high end guitars and let their less expensive models drop in quality?

Hey Jimbeaux,
What was 'exactly clear, and happenin'
over here' was up in Lee MA, a couple of weeks ago, at the Mass Steel Bash during your fantastic set.

NOW..................that was 'clear, and over here'....... great tone and smoothness.
It was some pretty flawless playing. Thanks
for being part of that super day.

ChipsAhoy

Mike...

I don't know the whole Gretsch story, but I have been interested in Gretsch since the early 1960's, and have two different books written in the 1990's about only Gretsch guitars, and a couple of old catalogs.  But I think the serious Baldwin-Gretsch quality problems came toward the last of the 1970's and early 1980's, followed by the whole thing going bust in the early 1980's.

The old Gretsch company always had quality problems that came and went.  The only Gretsch guitar I have (and ever had) is a 1964 Tennesseean.  Gretsch production volume was way up during that era.  Chet Atkins had become widely known, but when The Beatles appeared on the Ed Sullivan show in 1964, and George Harrison was playing a Gretsch Country Gentleman (that is probably just like your 1967 Country Gent), sales really took off at Gretsch.  My 1964 model has a bad bend in the end of the fingerboard, toward the strings, where it changes from over the neck to over the body (caused by the neck being mounted at the wrong angle to the body), and the fingerboard surface is rather roughly finished.  That is plain old sloppy assembly work when the guitar was made.  The previous owner I bought it from (in 1972 or 73) had the truss rod way out of adjustment, and the whole neck was curved, so I missed recognizing the problem, thinking I could adjust it out.  Adjustment did straighten the neck, but could not fix the bend at the neck to body joint.  Someday when I can afford it I hope to get that guitar a neck set job, thus correcting the mounting angle.  For now, I just don't make much use of the higher frets, and the rest plays OK.  The action could be even lower, with the problem fixed, though.  One of the two shoulder strap lugs was screwed crookedly into the wood, too.  As far as I know, the new Gretsch company has been a lot more careful about letting sloppy work get out.  I have heard complaints about the switches they currently use being inferior to the old switches made by Switchcraft.

It boils down to once you get hooked on a Gretsch, you gotta have one, and you find ways to work around, fix, or put up with, the problems.  That's probably true of most guitars.

----

I wasn't aware they made any Black Falcons back then.  But there were occasional custom guitars made by the old Gretsch, and perhaps by the Baldwin Gretsch too, that turn up from time to time and confuse everybody.  Three days ago I saw a single cutaway Gretsch Country Gent with Gibson-style humbucker pickups on it, and it had 1970's Gretsch knobs.  I think it was a 1960 or so model that has been tinkered with, possibly multiple times.

I have seen Black Falcon models on the website of the new (restored) Gretsch company during the past year or two.

An interesting tidbit on the White Falcons is the gold sparkle binding used around the edges.  Gretsch did, and still does, make drums, too.  That gold sparkle is drum material.

----

Here is an intersting Gretsch picture from 1958 showing Chet Atkins and Jimmie Webster.  Since it is wider than a screenful, I am making it a link you have to click on, so it doesn't foul up the width of this forum thread.
Click Here

So far nobody has identified just what is the gadget on top of the Bigsby on Chet's guitar.  Bigsby Palm Pedals came along later than that.  The question has even been put to former Gretsch Company man and current Gretsch Parts dealer Duke Kramer, and he didn't know.
 
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by b0b on 13 August 2001 at 06:47 PM.]</p></FONT>

When I was working @ Sam Ash ('91-'95), we were getting all of those Gretsch reissues through, and I only remember a couple that had good build quality. Some of 'em were downright poorly made, with bad fretwork & twisted necks (probably from green wood). Unfortunately, most of the big bodies fell into this category. I fell in love with the DeArmond pickups. tho', much louder & punchier than the Filtertrons. The Brian Setzer signature was just a joke: bad build, and ridiculously expensive. I think all of the guitars at the time were manufactured in Korea.

The workmanship on the solidbodies was generally much better. And hey, if the Silver Jet ain't the koolest lookin' guitar on the planet, I don't what is.

What I would love to hear more of is the Gretsch/Tele combo in R&R: it's such a great blend of tones--the Byrds, Beatles & Beach Boys definitely had the right idea [and how's that for alliteration??!?]. I think it's a more interesting tonal combo than the ubiquitous Les Paul/Strat.

Mike & Richard, thanks for the historical info!

<SMALL>I think the serious Baldwin-Gretsch quality problems came toward the last of the 1970's and early 1980's</SMALL>

That makes sense. My guitar is from '73, and it is simply exquisite. It's a shame that they (Baldwin) couldn't keep the quality up.

There is (as far as I know) only one difference between my '67 and George Harrison's guitar. His has the double mute system. Mine has a single mute covering all 6 strings.

Like Chet amd Merle Travis, when I want to mute the bass strings I use the heel of my hand rather than the mechanical one. But the Mechanical one gives off a different kind of tone, and I find it useful when I'm working on a recording to have as many different sounds at my disposal as possible. I have used the mute occasionally. Unfortunately it also throws the guitar out of tune, and so I have to re-tune whenever I use it. I personally find it useful, but it really is kind of a dumb idea, I can understand why so many players removed them when they bought the guitars.

The guitars with the mutes also had a 4 by 6 (approximately) inch hole in the back to allow access to the inside of the guitar. This is covered by a plastic cover, and then again by the vinyl pad. I've looked inside mine, and the internal bracing is against the top of the guitar. On the '73, as far as I can tell by looking through the F holes, the bracing is against the back, and there are some tone posts against the top. I can't really tell, and I'm not about to cut any holes in the guitar to find out.

One last note- The '73 was in perfect condition when I got it. The '67 was a wreck, and the neck, like so many others, had not been set correctly. I sent the guitar to an outfit called Wings Guitar Service. This is the Gretsch authorised service company. The reset the neck, rewired it, and refinished and rebound the guitar. They did a wonderful job. The guitar is now perfect, although not 100 % original.

<SMALL>There is (as far as I know) only one difference between my '67 and George Harrison's guitar. His has the double mute system. Mine has a single mute covering all 6 strings.</SMALL>

Minor correction, Mike: his is worth a bijillion dollars more than yours, too.

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www.jimcohen.com

The sound post between the top and the back of the guitar, near the bridge area, was installed in some Gretsch models some of the time.  I don't know which guitars had it and which did not.  The sound post was one of Chet's contributions.

My 1964 Gretsch has the sound post, along with the closed top (painted on F-holes).  In a quiet room when playing the guitar unamplified, it is fun to tilt it forward, and listen to the sound from the back of the guitar.

My Gretsch guitar, which lacks the Jimmie Webster "junk" (as some call it) [the mute, the padded back, etc.], has no F-holes and no coverplate on the back. The only access to the insides is through the pickup holes.

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<font size="-1">Why do guitars have tops and backs, but not fronts and bottoms ?!</font><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Richard Vogh on 01 August 2001 at 12:12 PM.]</p></FONT>

<SMALL>his is worth a bijillion dollars more than yours</SMALL>

LOL Jim. Did you know that the guitar Jimi Hendrix used at Woodstock recently was auctioned off on E-bay? The bidding got up to $200.000, but the guitar was not sold because the reserve had not been met.

I was thinking about buying it, but I already have a strat and and don't need a second one.

Neil Young still uses his White Falcon (single cutaway). Gretsch now makes a Stephen Stills signature model White Falcon.I'm wondering what the quality is like on the current line of Gretsch guitars.
The new Buffalo Springfield boxed set is a "must have" for Springfield fans. Worth every penny.

Thanks Geoff for the info on Neil Young, and
especially about the new BS Box Set. Hope it's not TOO much, cause I'm gonna hafta get
it. They were, and still are one my FAVS.

As a matter of fact, this latest group of
musicians I've been playing with, we're doing
"Go And Say Goodbye". What a fantastic blend of instruments, vocals, and especially arrangements.
CF

<i>You ask me to read this letter
That you wrote the night before
And you really should know better
'Cause she's worth a whole lot more...

</i> Btw, is the box set also called FWIW?

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www.jimcohen.com

I don't know that this is the least expensive place to get it, but you can spend an hour or more just listenin' to samples of every track:
click here

This compilation was Neil's project from the get-go, so you know it's going to be well done

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by b0b on 13 August 2001 at 06:46 PM.]</p></FONT>

Longer ago than I care to remember, (early 60s) my 1st job out of high school was working at Vega Musical Instruments in Boston (where, after I learned the craft, I had made custom banjos for Earl Scruggs, Eddie Peabody, Jerry Van Dyke, Pete Seeger & others.)

The owner of Vega had inherited the venerable old company from his father & was notorious for trying to increase profits at the expense of reduced quality. At one point, he began ordering prefabricated banjo necks for use in our lower line of instruments. I don't remember the name of the manufacturer of those necks now, but they also supplied necks for Gretsch. The wood was soft, porous & very green, with a thin lamination of some cheap, dark wood down the center of the necks -- and was identical to what Gretsch was using. Sometimes as many as 50% of the ordered stock arrived with the two halves of the neck separated at the lamination.

In those days, I played a Gretsch guitar I had owned for a few years. Realizing what kind of necks Gretsch was using, I never bought another. My next guitar was a Gibson 330 -- which I still have & treasure. <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bill Fall on 02 August 2001 at 12:25 PM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bill Fall on 02 August 2001 at 12:54 PM.]</p></FONT>