Nashville number system?

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 24 Jun 2001 9:45 am

Since I have never used this system I do not know a whole lot about it. What I have seen, I understand.

But I have a question for those of you who are proficient with it.

There is an old, and one time popular song made famous by the "Sons of the Pioneers" called "Tumbling Tumbleweeds". I seem to recall this being done in the Key of F. This "cowboy" song has an unusual chord in it, but it really adds a nice flavor to the song.

The chord progression for the first few bars are:

F, E, F.

Assuming the F chord to be the I chord, what in this world would the E chord be called using the Nashville numbering system?

"Enguiring minds want to know"

Carl

Roy Thomson · Post by **Roy Thomson** » 24 Jun 2001 9:56 am

Carl:
I don't think the F chord is 1.
Rather IV...
The song as I see it would be in the key of "C"

Joe Smith · Post by **Joe Smith** » 24 Jun 2001 10:14 am

Carl,I think Roy is right It would be F E (F C) (G C) or IV III (IV I) (V I) Time would 2/4
Course I could be wrong. If so, somebody correct me.

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Playing PSG keeps you on your toes.

Michael Holland · Post by **Michael Holland** » 24 Jun 2001 10:49 am

That's it. The F chord is the IV. The E chord is a III MAJOR. The III chord is minor until accidentals are introduced; in this case the G# makes the III chord major.

Bill Fulbright · Post by **Bill Fulbright** » 24 Jun 2001 11:35 am

Tell 'em Mike. You are right.

Just supposing the E was the 7 then, of course it would have been diminished.....but since it is clearly not, then, nevermind. heh heh.

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Bill Fulbright
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C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 24 Jun 2001 11:56 am

OK, so I really goofed badly. IF the key was C I have no problem with the E being the III chord. That seems logical to me.

So now that we got carl sitting in the corner facing the wall "stackin beebees"

, suppose there was a C# major chord in there (for what ever reason) in the Key of C, how would it be written using the Nashville numbering system?

My point is this; how can you write on paper ALL 12 major or minor, etc. chords using the Nashville number system, if any one or more were used in a given Key?

Thanks for your help,

carl

Moon in Alaska · Post by **Moon in Alaska** » 24 Jun 2001 12:16 pm

Carl, you are correct in that you can't write 12 intervals with a 7 number system. It, of course, works in allmost all songs, and my experience has been amoung musicians who use the number system, they would say " there is a wild chord in this song -- C#".

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Gregg Galbraith · Post by **Gregg Galbraith** » 24 Jun 2001 12:20 pm

Carl,
In the key of C, a C# chord would be called a 1#. It doesn't get much simpler than that.

Michael Holland · Post by **Michael Holland** » 24 Jun 2001 12:22 pm

Carl,
Sure you can build any chord from any tone. I would chart that chord as either a I# or a 2b(flat). It's common to have passing chords written so that everyone will walk together. You'd probably get some questioning looks, though, after passing out a chart with a I# on it. A more common use of a chord built off the I# would be a diminished passing chord up to the II minor chord. And you often hear the I# as the third of the VImajor chord, and sometimes as the root of that chord (VImajor over I# - charted as a 'fraction' with the chord number appearing over the root number).

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 24 Jun 2001 1:08 pm

Carl...I don't know whether you have "Band in a Box" in your computer or not, but if you do, it has a very cool feature that allows you to toggle between the regular chord names, "Nashville" numbers, Roman numerals, and Solfeggio ( i.e. "Do, Rey, Mi etc.) Using this feature shows that you can use NNS for every interval in the progression.....if you really want to.

I usually think of Nashville numbers to be used in only the most basic country or blues progressions. Like trying to explain a tune in ten words or less to a new bass player onstage etc. On anything more involved, I usually just go with standard notation with chord symbols (like in a fake book)....cuz most of the players I play with can it transpose themselves if they have to anyway.

Miguel e Smith · Post by **Miguel e Smith** » 24 Jun 2001 1:33 pm

Thanks Greg for clarifying that numbers "do" work with any chord in a song. The roots of the "Nashville Number System" actually goes back a few years (as many of the other replies above will atest) to this dude named Joe Bach (as Johann Sebastian Bach). It was the numbered or figured bass. Roman numerals were the basis yet each numeral was a predestined chord. Nashville players simplied it and unless a song is extremely complex (and some are), it's a great tool and easy to follow no matter what key you're in. However, most players outside of Nashville are used to using chord charts with actual name letters or even the Roman numerals. I recently did a session here in Phoenix and the producer said he had numbers charts....they were all in Roman numerals.

Sage · Post by **Sage** » 24 Jun 2001 3:13 pm

Acording to the chart, it is a flat II. http://castaliapub.com/Keytable2001.jpg
I would be seriously lost without my Castalia cards, as I have trouble remembering it all.
T. Sage Harmos

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 24 Jun 2001 3:50 pm

Carl,

I believe that some Nashville session players take the number system a step further and assign a second number to specify the measures. For example, if a song is in the key of C, and the intro is played over a G chord (V) for 3 measures and then a C chord (I) for 2 measures, it would be called a 53, 12 intro. I'm not sure if I have order of the numbers right, but that's the general idea.

The system comes in handy in the studios, where a singer might want to change the key of a song on the spot. No need to rewrite the charts if you're using numbers. The numbers come in handy on stage too. It seems easier to just tell the other musicians... it's a I, IIIm, IV, V progression, than to name all the chords. In general however, I prefer using the chord names in all of my charts and teachings. If a song calls for a D add9 or a C#sus, I prefer to see that written out.

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Gregg Galbraith · Post by **Gregg Galbraith** » 24 Jun 2001 4:06 pm

Doug,
I have never come across that method of denoting repeated measures for chords. The intro you described would be written,"55511", by virtually every session leader in Nashville.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 24 Jun 2001 4:21 pm

Thanks Gregg and all the rest of you. I believe I understand it now.

One more question now. If a tune changes key how is that denoted and can you give me an example?

Gregg?

carl

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 24 Jun 2001 6:31 pm

*[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 01 May 2002 at 05:52 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 24 Jun 2001 7:29 pm

(+2) is a modulation from C to F? How does that work? I would think that (+2) would be like C to D.

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 24 Jun 2001 7:56 pm

Gregg, Back around 1983, Jeff Newman did a "live" recording session on stage at Scotty's convention, as a demonstration of how a session is run. The musicians put together a song on stage, discussed it, and recorded it with a vocalist live. In discussing the chord progression with the band, I heard Jeff using the system that I described above... 55, 11, etc. Anyway, it's not a system that I'm comfortable with.

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Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 24 Jun 2001 8:27 pm

Doug Beaumier- I am with you. I think the chords should always be written out.

This way the player is constantly being reminded of the actual real chord names and learning them well. And at the same time learning more about Music.

However , having said that., There is nothing wrong with the Nashville Numbering system.

In fact it is very useful most of the time. With all the above advantages mentioned in previous posts.

I remember before the NNS , if the singer changed keys, we had to transpose all those chords. Whew!

So let's have the best of both worlds and do them both on a chart, why not?.........al

[This message was edited by Al Marcus on 24 June 2001 at 09:32 PM.]

Craig Allen · Post by **Craig Allen** » 24 Jun 2001 10:37 pm

What is the mystique with the Gnash-ville Numbering System??!
It's been around for several hundred years!!

Consider;
It takes 3 notes to construct a chord.
The ROOT, the 3rd and the 5th.
The root = 1, or 1st.
Combining the 3 notes has another name,besides chord. It's called a TRIAD.
Using "C", the notes would be C,E,and G.

When playing in the key of "C", we might be instructed to go to the 5th. How do we know what the 5th is?? It's a "G"!!
When you add the 7th tone to "C", you are adding a "B" to the mix, and creating tension. (C7th)

The chart that was linked above is great. I draw them out on napkins all the time.
Add the appropriate sharps and flats, and you have it whipped.

It's not that hard, and it is certainly no secret.

Just remember that there are only 7 notes in the musical scale, and that each note coresponds to a number.
When you start getting into 13th's and stuff, you are getting into octaves, but the same rules apply. There are only 7 notes in the scale, so start counting over again.(Don't flame me for over-simplifying that last part.)

Now I ask.......What key is the song the House of the Rising Sun, in??

It must be in C, as if you try to play an Am scale over it, it ain't rite.
To ride that song you have to ride it out of "C", so...........jest one of those things.

Ernie Renn · Post by **Ernie Renn** » 25 Jun 2001 12:47 am

This week our band will be the backup band for a Country Showdown, (I think True Value.)
We will be using this charting system for most of it.
As far as writing out the chords: the first time we did the showdown backup, our band leader wrote out the chords for the tunes, taking them from the cassettes the contestants had sent in. Luckily, we had rehearsals with the contestants for the two days prior to the contest. About half of them changed keys on the tunes. We had to re-write those charts before the show. Since then, I write my own charts and use the numbers. It just saves time.

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Ernie

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Gregg Galbraith · Post by **Gregg Galbraith** » 25 Jun 2001 12:53 am

Doug,
If the leader on a session were "calling" the numbers to a song, so that each musician could write his own chart,for the intro you originally described,he would say,"fifty-five, fifty-one,one" (55511) What I have never encountered is having the same intro written as 53 12.

Carl,
When we change keys, we usually just mark our chart with "Mod.1/2 step", or "Mod. 1 step." This will usually, but not always, be accompanied by a 5# or a 6 chord as a transition to the new key.

Sage,
The C# is a 1# in the key of C. A 2b would be Db.[This message was edited by Gregg Galbraith on 25 June 2001 at 02:02 AM.]

Larry Miller · Post by **Larry Miller** » 25 Jun 2001 2:47 am

Hey fellas, Gregg would absolutely, positively know!!!

Larry

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 25 Jun 2001 6:46 am

Thanks for the clarification Gregg. I knew they doubled up the numbers, but I wasn't quite sure how.

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Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 25 Jun 2001 10:14 am

This same thread was on here five months ago with about the same things being posted at that time,I 'spose we have a lot of turn over here though. Bobbe[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 25 June 2001 at 11:18 AM.][This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 25 June 2001 at 01:12 PM.]