The Steel Guitar Forum

Since John Hughey's thread was closed before I got a chance to weigh in, I will post it here.

Given the leftist "values" being taught to our culture for the past 40 years (particularly those socialist values of "from each according to his means, to each according to his needs"), it should be no surprise that we have a generation of freeloaders that think fairness is defined by everyone having the same--ie equal outcomes, not just equal opportunity. Our government rewards people for not working and for having more and more children. Government funding penalizes marriage and responsibility.

When people choose the politician who promises to GIVE them the most instead of which one has the better character and values, then it is no surprise that people expect everything to be given to them.

Here's a quote: "The WWII generation lived by the words, 'Give me liberty or give me death,' the 60s generation lived by, 'Give me liberty' and the current generation lives by the words, 'Give me!'"

THE SOLUTION: Napster and the like should modify their software where only a portion (less than 50%) of a song could be "uploaded." In this way, people could hear a sample and be prompted to buy the entire recording if they like it well enough.

I think John's "John Hughey" CD is an incredible work (a top 5 recording of all time) and the rhythm track CD for it is a powerful practice tool. I found them to be more than worth their price and I hope those who have uploaded his work will either remove it or reduce it to a 30 second sample.

In fact, I think the "John Hughey" CD is so good that I do not see how he could ever top it! But if anyone can, John can.

Frank

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1980 Black Emmons Push-Pull D-10 9+4 #2783D

Frank, I couldn't aggree with you more.



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SUAS U' PHIOB
Geo

..mighty few actual thoughts about Napster for a topic titled "My Thoughts on Napster"..

Good point Pat,and on top of that , it's not even in the "correct" forum. b0b specifically asked for further Napster discussions to be in "Music"- but then it's not a Napster discussion or is it? I'm so confuse...

Frank, can we paraphrase and just blame it all on Bill Clinton?

To Pat and Dave, the senior members of the hair-splitting committee of which I will never join:

I do not care what you guys say, it is wrong to make someone else's entire work available world-wide for free on a system like Napster without explicit permission and regardless of what you think, the price for John's work is a fair price, because it is one of the top steel guitar instrumental recordings of all time.

Sorry you both disagree with me...

(You all can see why we have an Off Topic Board!)

..Frank, I think it's patently clear that neither Dave nor Jeremy nor I commented about Napster or John Hughey at all...anyone with reading comprehension skills beyond the 3rd grade level can see that you are failing in your attempt to paint us as Napster enthusiasts and thieves of the bread from John Hughey's table..

..Having met both Dave and Jeremy, I think I can speak for us all when I say our comments are about the nearly total lack of Napster content in your post, and the painfully obvious promotion of conservative life-styles for which you are notorious, posted under a misleading title.

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Pat Burns on 13 March 2001 at 01:42 PM.]</p></FONT>

I like the idea of being able to hear 30-second clips of any song, and then if you want to download the whole thing, you enter a credit card number, or PayPal, or whatever, so you can download the whole thing... as long as the money goes to the right people, and not just to Napster. Then it really would be a great marketing tool for selling music.

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www.jimcohen.com

Jeremy, good to hear from one of the "Give Me," generation. In answer to your question, No, we should not blame it all on Bill. If you will attempt to read more carefully (assuming they taught you phonics in public school), then you will notice that the culture corruption began over 40 years ago.

Bill Clinton is a PRODUCT of the indoctrination by the left. It does NOT exempt him of his responsibility during his years of influence and therefore, he is not the sole reason. I think you know that and I want to end my reply to you with part of song.

In my best Elvis voice sung to the tune of "Love Me Tender:"

...
Tax me tender,
Tax me true,
All my dreams you've killed,
For Slick Willie, I didn't vote for you,
And I never will!

Can you sing those last two line, Jeremy? <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Frank Estes on 13 March 2001 at 02:39 PM.]</p></FONT>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>...it is wrong to make someone else's entire work available world-wide for

free on a system like Napster without explicit permission....</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I never thought I'd agree wtih Frank on any subject, but he is right on this. Where he is wrong is in politicising the issue, blaming those with whom he disagrees.

I just learned that my Firebird Suite CD is available as a free download from one of the similar outfits. I don't know whether to be flattered or outraged.

But for those artists who (unlike myself) are trying to support themselves through their work, this really does amount to taking the bread from their table.

I think Jim Cohen has the right idea.

Jim Cohen is right on.. Frank, I agree with you somewhat, but when you start making this a left vs. right issue, you have a tendancy to tork some folks off.. Right is right and wrong is wrong, no matter what side of the political fence you're on..

Mike P.. I see your point and understand your mixed feelings... Personally, I think Napster is bogus.. Totally wrong.. John Hughey's material is worth a lot more than what he's asking for it. I am in total agreement with John's feelings...<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Ric Epperle on 13 March 2001 at 02:14 PM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Ric Epperle on 13 March 2001 at 02:17 PM.]</p></FONT>

Mike, it is a cultural issue and that is where politics and religion have an impact. Sadly, today I think politics has the bigger impact on culture, which simply is another way of saying societal values.

I like Jim's idea too. I was originally thinking that they would contact the Web site of the owner of the music and buy from there. The downloading is a good option when the right people get paid, like Jim suggested.

Pat, I was just returning the favor...

It is obvious to anyone with the reading level of a 1st grader that my thread was in response to the closed John Hughey thread. It got closed while I was working on my reply. I simply cut and pasted it into a new thread and did not see b0b's request for further postings to be in the Music board.

YOU attempted to mask your disagreement over my culture comments by attacking the "preciseness" of my topic. From now on, I will respond to your little game of non-sequiters by dishing it back.

So, the culture comments and references to John's music are relevant when considering John's thread. You simply chose a couple of liberal debating tactics such as attack the message and/or messenger and build a "straw man" to knock over by selectively reading and comprehending to serve your purpose.

At least DVA, the self-proclaimed site cop, has realized he cannot run with the big dogs and stays on the porch by not participating on the OTB any more. Sadly, you have not figured that out yet.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Frank Estes on 13 March 2001 at 02:39 PM.]</p></FONT>

Like others I agree with:

<SMALL>...it is wrong to make someone else's entire work available world-wide for free on a system like Napster without explicit permission....</SMALL>

But please leave the leftist routine at home.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jason Odd on 13 March 2001 at 05:01 PM.]</p></FONT>

Napster? - I think CDs are a Communist plot -we all know you can only get "that tone" from vinyl (preferably 78 rpm) and a McIntosh tube amp

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Greg Simmons
Custodian of the Official Sho~Bud Pedal Steel Guitar Website
shobud.cjb.net

Apparently Dick Dale though the Beatles were a Communist plot!

...I also agree with Jim Cohen's thoughts about Napster, both because they are a workable win-win solution, and because they actually address the captioned topic of Napster.

...Jim, we just need to make sure the 30 seconds or so don't cut off the steel ride for music that isn't all steel. I don't know how many times I've listened to MP-3 samples that cut out just as the steel was about to come in, or just as it started...

Now I'm a bit confused. What is the big problem with somebody pointing out that his opinion is that leftist values are the cause of a problem? What if he had said the cause of the problem is conservative values? So what? Why is it a no-no to even mention anything relating to politics?

Also, to say that the original post doesn't say enough about Napster is rediculous. What if he had entitled his post "my random thoughts while taking a dump?" Would that be better? I think that would be a great title. But, alas, he didn't actually mention anything in his post about the act of taking a dump, did he? Well, then, I guess he couldn't very well name his post "my random thoughts while taking a dump," could he.

This is absolutely not a right versus left issue. One could make an equally strong point that the Napster thing is the epitome of the evils of capitalism (after all, Napster is a for profit corporation, not a hippie commune). But that would be as wrong as Frank's diatribe.

It's a moral issue, which is not directly related to religion. If you think it is wrong to steal, whatever your ethical basis, then Napster is wrong. It doesn't have anything to do with politics or religion. Now there are some anarchists out there who believe that property=theft, and that everything should be publically owned. But that's not what Napster is about. It is all about some business guys trying to make a buck off of artists. Nothing revolutionary going on there, it's the American way.

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www.tyacktunes.com

OK, I will weigh in here, and then run for cover

First off, I agree that all artists should be compensated for their work, period. Keeping this in mind, I still am a supporter for Napster. Three reasons:

1) Time after time, I have been burned by buying a garbage CD. I may have heard one song by an artist, and then bought an entire CD, only to find out there was just the one good song on there. Will I get my money back for the music that I don't want? Is there really an option to return the CD? Here's what I do.....I download a majority of the songs off Napster. If I like the songs, I buy the CD. This way, I am supporting the artist (thus giving the artist an incentive to make another album), plus I get the liner notes, which I do value. For this reason alone, I think Napster is invaluable.

2) There are many obscure artists I like that haven seen their records in print in over 30 years....and probably never will. I don't look at downloading their songs as "lost revenue" for them, since the songs aren't going to be released legitimately anyway! Besides that, the quality is not worth paying for, since it is usually sourced from a 30-year-old vinyl LP or 45. Bootleg concerts fall into the same category here.

3) This reason is more a personal thing against the recording industry, but....what happened to those of us with hundreds of LPs? The "industry" decided that we needed something better....along came cassettes & 8-tracks. Many of us started replacing our albums (music which we already bought the rights to) with these new formats.....formats which have now also died, to be replaced by CDs. How many times do we have to keep buying the same album, but on different formats? Have you gone to an electronics store lately? You may find ONE record player there....certainly no needles or belts. You almost HAVE to switch your collection to a new format. We're seeing the same thing now with VHS....the VHS sections at most stores are becoming smaller and smaller.....that's the industry TELLING you you'd better shape up and buy a DVD player.....eventually, you'll be replacing all the movies in your VHS collection with DVD versions....movies you already bought the rights to.

IMO, the industry has made a lot of money off of me, in some cases ripping me off (charging inflated CD prices), forcing me to switch to their new formats, and being unable to sample an entire album before finding out whether its any good or not.

Now the industry must realize that like it or not, Napster is here to stay. The courts can shut it down, but there are a number of copycat services already out there, and more being created every day. (And it was reported in the news the other day that record sales did NOT decline over the past year, as the industry said it would....similar to how tape recorders and recordable CD decks would ruin the business as well, right?)

All this said, I still believe artists should receive some sort of compensation for their works WHICH ARE CURRENTLY IN PRINT (not 50-year-old songs that would never have seen light of day if not for Napster). I'd be all for a fee-based system.....unfortunately, most would not, and you would see a good number of Napster users (and their song files) drop off, leaving a few people left to use their service...the others would simply do the free-song-swapping elsewhere.

Joe

There's nothing "wrong," per se with bringing up political philosophy in a discussion like this that I can see; however, there's nothing "wrong" with readers disagreeing with your premise and forthrightly stating "you're completely incorrect."

In other words, "improper" is not synonymous with "incorrect." "Wrong" has too broad a definition to be appropriate in the above situation.

It seems to me the issue is a matter of world-outlook... didn't the Germans call it veltenschaung? If you view the workings of the world as right-wing v. left-wing, regardless of whether you're Perlowin or Estes, individual situations will fall into your particular paradigms regardless of whether or not any causality is actually there. It's easy and less confusing philosophically, though IMHO, mentally lazy. I don't know anyone on this Forum that doesn't participate in one way or the other occasionally, including yours truly.

And over on the OTB, sheesh! Fergit it, bruddah!

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 14 March 2001 at 06:15 AM.]</p></FONT>

Thank you, Herb. I think.

My point is that the "Napster ethical problem" is a result of our societal values (culture) and the question to ask is, Whose values are being predominately adopted? There is a clear reason why the honor system will not work in such cases.

No way am I implying that the Republicans are pure as the wind driven snow. In fact, it may surprise you to hear that I think the two parties are becoming too much alike.

I do not even label myself a Republican. I am a Full-Gospel Conservative and have been disappointed by the RNC many times.

That being said, clearly one party's philosophy promotes government dependence more than the other. That means "hand-outs." That means "stuff" given away and people believing they are entitled to it.

Hence, we have a whole generation who seems to think they are entitled to free stuff.

One of the posters above said he uses Napster to hear a tune and then goes out and buys the CD if he likes the music. That is cool if everyone would do that. Sort of an honor system.

I also understand that getting access to recordings that will no longer be published or obtain elsewhere is a legitimate reason.

I logged onto Napster a few days ago for the first time to see what it was all about. I saw Buddy's, Hal's, Doug's, Paul's, Hughey's stuff on it.

I will admit that I downloaded a partial recording of Jerry Reed and Paul Franklin's "Nervous Breakdown." I have looked all over for Jerry Reed's "Half and Half" recording and cannot find it. I have looked at some of the Best of Jerry Reed recordings and the tune is not on it. I have been willing to buy a whole CD just for that tune, but I cannot find it.

Anyway, I had heard how incredibly fast Paul is on the tune and man, they are right! I heard that Paul used an Emmons push-pull to play the tune. It is an unbelieveable. The file I downloaded has part of Jerry's ride and I am guessing most of Paul's since it stops before Paul finished or maybe Paul was nearly finished.

Side note: So much for people not being able to play at warp speed on an Emmons push-pull!

I uninstalled Napster. I would like to see them enforce a file size limit and that would keep them to only parts of a song. I feel by not participating that I am showing that I do not support Napster in its current form.

I believe there are websites that will allow you to share (download) movies, then by burning it on a CD you can play it in a DVD player.
Is there anyone who has a problem with that?
I doubt it.
Like you are going to worry about "cheating" Warner Bros. or Universal out of movie revenue.
The difference pointed out in this original (John Hughey)post was that when smaller independent artists are subjected to the same "sharing" it hurts them financially to a MUCH greater degree.
To download their work or not ...it's between you and your conscience.
Let's face it, the world is changing and we'll never rid ourselves of this technology, whether you think it's moral or not.
I think by now, every artist who makes a CD knows it may very well be shared for free.
That's a chance they take. It goes with the territory.
Perhaps they will find a way to earn a share of profits from downloading...until then, it seems to be unstopable.
I guess recording artists will have to learn to live with it.

Herb,

Well-said. That's what it's all about -- freedom of expression. There should be freedom to disagree and even freedom to say, "you're wrong." But, at the same time, one should not be put down just because his opinion contains political overtones.

Joe A.,

While I respect your opinion, I disagree with you in some ways. First, when you buy a copy of a "work" such as a copy of a photograph, or a copy of a book, or a copy of a song, you are not buying the rights to that work -- you are only buying the copy. In other words, just because you buy the copy doesn't mean you have the right to do anything you want to with it. One of the things you can't do is make unauthorized copies of it. So, if you buy a vinyl record, that doesn't mean you have the rights to that album -- it only means you own that copy.

By your theory, if someone creates a work and it's not circulated, then they lose their rights in the work. For example, let's say that someone records a fantastic song, but puts it away in their closet for 30 years. Someone gets ahold of it and, by your theory, can freely make and distribute copies of it. I don't agree with that. Once somebody creates a work, they own the rights to that work until they sell the rights to someone else.

CD's are just too expensive...THAT'S why Napster was so popular. If the industry would come up with a way to give you 15 songs (the songs that YOU want...not that "filler crap") on a CD for about $6-$8, no one would bother to waste all that time "downloading".

Funny, nobody really cared when people were using their stereo to record songs off the radio onto cassettes. But now that we got computers and CD's, it's a big deal. Go figure!