The Steel Guitar Forum

Apropos of the recent thread about keeping a band together, I have another question...
What's the secret to a band sounding great when it plays out live?
My band has been together for six years with only a few personnel changes, and those were all for the better. The level of musicianship improved as did the cooperative spirit and communication. This band has the most open communication of any I've ever experienced.
We've gone from five pieces (with an occasional sixth - a good keyboard player who'd sit in once in a while) to seven: bass, drums, female lead vocal; rhythm guitar; lead guitar; keyboard; steel/dobro (me). Last night at practice, we called a halt to the proceedings to talk over why everything sounded so damn noisy. It isn't that we're overplaying as much as we're not sure how to structure our parts now that there are seven of us.
Does anyone have any advice for playing really clean and in the pocket? We all want it, we all agree that it's the most important thing for us right now, we'd all agree to play however it takes, we just don't know how to get it.
It's a country band; we are all very skilled players and she has the real deal country music voice; we don't have a great PA (no separate monitor mixes and only occasionally a sound man) but we refuse to blame the equipment. We're out of our depth on the arrangements. Any advice, direction or guidance would be greatly appreciated.
If you simply must have a look at this crew: Neon Cactus

Everyone should agree upon what the music is supposed to sound like, and that it's the preferred music of all players. Everyone should realize they have a specific role to fill that is distinct from the other instrument's roles but is also complementary to it.

All band members should realize that hopefully while everyone has their 15 minutes of stage fame each night, the totality of the sound should be paramount in everyone's mind.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages

Sounds like you are posing a philosophical question, but in a factual sense... the most important part of any band is the drummer and bassist. As long as they stay tight anyone else can make mistakes and the song still rolls along. If the rhythm section breaks down even the best guitarist or steel guitarist can't save the performance. JMO

My $0.02.....

1) What erik said. Actually, double what erik said.

2) Turn down. And when you turn down, turn the amp down to set the maximum level. The reason is that if guys turn down at the guitar, their volume has a tendency to creep right back up. IMHO most bands play way too loud. (Yeah, I know it's more fun.) You can actually hear MORE of what's going on if things are more quiet. Not only that but loud bands are annoying to customers. Turn down so the guy and gal that just met each other at the bar and are trying to get acquainted don't have to start off their relationship by SCREAMING at one another.

3) When someone is soloing there should only be the soloist, bass, drums, and maybe one other rhythm instrument (acoustic guitar) playing. When I listen to a record and Brent or Paul or whoever are taking a solo, I don't hear a sax, fiddle, harmonica, keyboard and everything else going on in the background.

4) Have the bass player and guitar player start using a compressor/limiter. It can get rid of a lot of those accidental peaks that tend to act like an ice pick in your ears.

This kinda reminds me of the To Play or not to play discussion. The turning down idea is what I try to push with whoever I pick with. FWIW, I worked a couple of jobs with a fiddle player named Dale Morris Sr. He gave me a tip years ago. It was actually on one of the first few commercial jobs I ever played. He showed up with cotton in his ears. I was so green, I didn't understand. Now I do. I've lost some mid-frequency hearing in my left ear from that old Session 400. I regret not using musician type earplugs.

Well, here's a great thread.!!!
Wisdom comes w: age, most of us here seem to have mellowed out w: the Years + Habit
As for the Hero's + Pro's, their Livelyhood is Playin' Great !
we are still but common Mortal Human'Beans!
i too appreciated the thread on "Keepin' a Band together" ie: Musik is Magik !
Musik is Communion. if one knows the language of Musik, knows how to listen to others, knows how to share the Space + fit in
then he will contribute toward sounding great?
You can bet your Steel bar, that one has to be Philosophical, one also has to be Patient, Humble, Skilled, Reliable, Humorous,
+ 'specially a G D C K !!!
Bless those who stick it out through thick + thin, don't get lost in the sauce, keep there eyes on the Donut, keep the Kustomer
Satisfied,+ are at E's w: the $$$$.
oh yeah, TURN THAT DARN THING DOWN !
BTW dial 1234 for the Musik Police

I've never been able to figure it out....sometimes everything sounds great and the next time everything sounds lousy! One thing I've discovered is that whether it sounds "lousy" or "great" seems to be in perception, and it's not usually perceived the same by everyone at the same time.

Example: How often have you thought you had a terrible night, but received all kinds of unexpected compliments?....and on the other hand, when you thought you played exceptionally well no one said a thing?

Gene Jones http://genejones.bizland.com <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 27 January 2001 at 08:05 AM.]</p></FONT>

My opinion of what makes a good band and a good sound is simple. Every member should try to blend in with every other member with no one trying tio be a star. Then play the music so the audience can understand and enjoy the sounds. IUn my opinion licks are for jammin'

I must agree with erik, also. The bass and drums are very important. For the band to drive, you gotta have a drivin' rhythm section! I listened to your little audio snippets, too. The arrangements are OK and so is the overall sound. My only recommendation? You need more energy...some "enthusiasm"! You just don't sound like you're having much fun.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>
. It isn't that we're overplaying as much as we're not sure how to structure our parts now that there are seven of us.
Does anyone have any advice for playing really clean and in the pocket? We all want it, we all agree that it's the most important thing for us right now, we'd all agree to play however it takes, we just don't know how to get it.
It's a country band; we are all very skilled players and she has the real deal country music voice; we don't have a great PA (no separate monitor mixes and only occasionally a sound man) but we refuse to blame the equipment. We're out of our depth on the arrangements.
</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
A question: Do you plan who is going to play the fills when? If you listen to professional recordings, usually the "lead" instruments trade off playing the fills behind the singer, each taking a verse, or splitting a verse, etc. It can sound really chaotic if everybody is playing fills at the same time. I don't know whether that's your problem. Of course, it takes a lot of work and practice to really arrange every song this way, and perhaps the hardest part is agreeing on the details of who plays where. But I also think that's a really fun part of being in a band, if you can agree.

Other than that, I think Herb Steiner's post nails the philosophical side of it.
Cheers,
Alan Shank

The answer, in a nutshell: Call it magic.

Just imagine all those same challenges, but when playing in a symphony orchestra.
That should make your load feel lighter.

OK, what AJM said, As In:

1) but...the drummer & bassist must also know when and how to lay back...when the music, and/or the current situation calls for it.
2) The "D" word...Dynamics, a most important study, in itself. "D" also depends heavily on the other "D" word: Discipline, as in both self and group discipline.
3) Another thought on #3: I listen to, and love to play a lot of small-ensemble style Swing, and Hillbilly Jazz tunes. I've noticed in listening to the masters, that often the guitarist will simply turn down the volume knob, and comp acoustically when the piano, fiddle, and other players do their solos.
It sounds really cool in the mix too, hearing a big archtop guitar with flatwound strings being spanked in this manner. I have heard this being done by Hank Garland, Grady Martin, Roy Lanam, Ray Benson, et al.
Hint: Laying back in a manner which fits in well with any instrument's unique quirks can impart such sonic accents to the music, while giving room and support to the soloist. I.E., many swing fiddlers will comp their two-note chords in the background, while another musician solos. Support the others during their solos, and they will support you when the solo is yours.
4) Compress, with care, definitely. Like having a governor on an engine, when things are normal you don't notice it's there, but when set properly it will help keep you within your deaired limits.

Addenda:

Having intermittent, but routine eye contact with your bandmates while playing will foster an automatic, silent mode of communication between all of you, that will go a long way toward the making the band more cohesive, smooth, savvy, and in the groove.

Someone who is familiar with the band and its playing, sound, etc., but not a playing member can be a valuable, more objective advisor. Pay attention to what your "regular" fans, followers from family or just friends, and the audience have to say (within reasonable limits of course, LOL!).

(My)Caveat, and a hearty sigh: I'm envious of your situation, and your opportunity to work all these details out! I enjoy working on this stuff with the other players, just about as much as I enjoy all other aspects of playing music. It's an interesting and most rewarding challenge. I wish I could be there to participate!
The big jackpot: When it does all come together for you, savor the presence of the magic.


<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Rich Paton on 27 January 2001 at 03:26 PM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Rich Paton on 27 January 2001 at 05:09 PM.]</p></FONT>

Just a little bit from my experiences, FWIW:

A rock band that I work with had been rehearsing at my place for awhile. The room is small, we don't have a full basement, so we have to keep the volume down so as not to disturb the neighbors. The drummer played a small set with brushes or those sticks that are a bunch of wooden rods bound together. After a couple months of doing that, we found a rehearsal space where we could crank it up. Playing louder was much, much more fun and drove the energy of our rehearsals to a higher level. The trade off was that we were not listening to each other as well and we just started to plow through the songs. We realized that we accomplished more playing more quietly at my place.

The solution: We rehearse one night a week, picking apart the tunes at my place, quietly. It's all about ironing out the details and hearing what everyone is offering to the songs. Then, once a month we go to the larger rehearsal space and rock out, letting the energy further shape what we've accomplished so far. The 2 approaches are very effective together. Kind of getting the best of both worlds and accomplishing as much as possible with the limited time we have.

Cleaning up your arrangements is possible only if you are listening to each other, learning what each of your bandmates is playing, and shaping your parts around their contributions. You MUST listen more than you play, and you must be flexible in regards to what you are willing to play. For example, if the keyboard part in a particular passage is more effective than your guitar part, lay back and let the keyboard player shine. Remember that your turn will come up later and the keyboard player will lay back. This type of stuff starts to become 2nd nature as the band progresses. You'll start recognizing where your bandmates play and they will recognize where you play. That's when it starts getting magical and it seems like you are reading each others minds...in a sense, you ARE doing just that. Once you have built that magical insight into each others' playing, you have a great sounding band!