The Steel Guitar Forum

The Opry Band firings are admittedly a big part of our world and a generally unfortunate thing for the pickers involved, and also a symbol of the direction our beloved music seems to be heading. Still, somehow I can't feel that this situation is any more tragic than what goes on in corporate America every day of the year.

I don't see much difference in tragedy between an Opry musician getting the axe, and a 56-year-old mid-level manager who, after many years of loyal service to a company and with years more service left in him, getting sh*tcanned for someone younger and less expensive to employ.

Certainly an organization has the right to employ whomever they want, within limits. And a company without heart and soul, like what it seems Gaylord Entertainment has become (I don't know first-hand. I've never worked for them), will make itself known in the marketplace.

It used to be that loyalty was worth something in the United States. In selected areas, I'm sure it still is.

Your right Herb,when Gaylord came to town I heard rumors that the business establishment in Oklahoma was glad to get rid of him for his carpet bag ethics.Mr. and Mrs. Gaylord,or Ma and Pa Kettle as I called them,came here acting like they were everybodys friend,well you know the rest of the story.
When Opryland closed their doors they put roughly 250 musicians out of a job.That was a pretty deep cut in this town and the beat goes on.

Maybe layoffs and firings should be mediated in divorce court. That would make companies think twice.

Guys, I must respectfully disagree a bit...

IMHO, the only real job security is a job well done. If you have that, you can work anywhere. I believe this applies equally well to all careers.

An employer doesn't owe anyone a job and employees should not think of themselves as slaves or victims.

I've always felt that I was the "goose that laid the golden egg" 'cause I know how to get stuff done. In my case, I write darn fine manuals and technical publications. I currently make a 20% - 30% premium to the top of every salary survey I've ever seen for my profession and I have no trouble *ever* finding a job.

I hate to see folks buying into this victim mentality. The best way to avenge a ruthless employer is to not let them profit from the fruits of your labor.

I also just want to add that I don't know what sort of folks the Gaylords are, but presumably Opryland closed its doors 'cause it wasn't making money. Given that, no one has an obligation, moral or otherwise, to operate a money-losing business just so "250 musicians" don't lose their jobs. This is after all America. 'Least is was last time I checked.

'Just my .02... your mileage may vary.<p ALIGN=CENTER><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b">[This message was edited by Mike Tatro on 11-16-99]</FONT></P>

.<p ALIGN=CENTER><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b">[This message was edited by Mike Tatro on 11-16-99]</FONT></P>

Mike,
Well said!

I agree 100% with Herb. This is something that goes on everyday in corporate America. And like I said before, some companies handle it properly and others don't. The current Opry fiasco is how not to do it.

All of the staff band are super pickers. However, we also have to remember some don't know when to "hang it up" either. When I'm 70 I hope I still pick steel guitar as good as I do today (which is not to say I'm a super picker), but I wouldn't expect to be picking in a venue such as the Opry.

Mike-Opryland was still making money-its profits were down,but it was far from being in the red...I can't remember the exact figures,but I do remember that I was surprised that they closed it.Everyone around here was!We already have 4 or 5 malls here in the Nashville area.I'm real anxious to see how Opry Mills does...As far as owing anybody anything,there's no law that says TNN has an obligation to have country music on it,either...<p ALIGN=CENTER><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b">[This message was edited by Steve Hinson on 11-16-99]</FONT></P>

Dittoes to you Steve.If opryland had been in that bad a shape they wouldn't have stayed open for 25 yrs.I learned a long time ago not to put all of my eggs in one basket because no job in the music business lasts forever.
You want to hear a bigger surprise?A year after the park closed there were still tourists coming to Nashville that didn't know the park closed.They planned their vacations around Opryland. <p ALIGN=CENTER><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b">[This message was edited by Earl Erb on 11-16-99]</FONT></P>

Well Mike, I hope you realize that one day you'll be an "old has-been". And unless you "retire early", or "own the company", it will happen to you too. I'm not being nasty...but that's just the way it is today (and sooner or later, you'll realize it). I have a lot of friends that are computer programmers, and they now have the world by the @$$. But, in ten years (maybe less), they've got a terrible surprise comming...the same kind of surprise that the payroll clerk, the secretary, and the machinist and the garment worker got 10 years ago!

"Sorry...we no longer require your services, we have automatic machines and computers to do that work now. And if automatic machines and computers can't do it, we'll just find some foreigner who will work twice as long as you do...for half the pay. It just makes good business sense!"

"Thank you, we wish you good luck in the future."

Herb-in this case,whoever they hire will be paid the same union scale as the guys who got canned.They are letting 5 guys go-one was retiring anyway.They are hiring 3 new guys.That means they are going to end up with one less musician on the payroll.This is not about money or age-I have to guess that politics are involved.The Opry is a very political place-I'm glad to be gone from there...

Donny, I always strike at least a tacit (if not an explicit) understanding with everyone I work for...

"If you can find someone who will do a better job than I am doing for less money, then you should immediately fire me and hire them."

The day someone comes to me with the scenario you suggested it will either be:

1) My fault that I didn't keep up with the times and ceased to be useful

2) Their fault for running their business into the ground.

In the latter case, there's not much I can do except go work for someone else. In the former case, shame on me for putting myself (and my family) in that position. BTW, it may surprise you that I've been writing full time for over 15 years and I have a whopping 19 units of college credit. No one has given me anything except an opportunity. With God's constant help, I've made the most of it.

About the foreign labor thing... IMHO, if one's job *can* be done by a semi-literate third world worker for 1/10 the money, then it is the US worker who has the problem. He has ceased to offer a marketable skill at a competitive price.


Again, if you conceive of yourself as a slave or victim constantly at the mercy of heartless businessmeen, then I certainly understand how one could feel exploited. However, if you conceive of yourself as a "free agent" with free will offering a valuable product or service, then it's just another opportunity to move onto something new. Attitude *really* can determine outcome here.

Donny (et al), no disrespect intended. I hope we can agree to disagree and still be friends.

Let me throw a slightly different slant on this issue. (get ready for a long one)

I AM one of those middle-managers in a very large global pharmaceutical company and I hear Herb loud and clear. I also understand and respect Mike's point.

In the nearly 30 years during which I've been living in that briar patch called Corporate America, the patch has changed substantially. When I was hired, the company was a family-run pill company founded by a small-town physician with some good ideas. It was a FACT that, unless one committed some major faux pas, e.g., stealing from the company, one was blessed with peace of mind and an assurance of a job for life. THERE WAS NO SUCH THING AS A LAYOFF. Didn't matter whether you were factory line worker, janitor, senior scientist, or CEO. Some did leave, but almost exclusively of their own volition. I think the Opry gig, at least in the Hal/Weldon/Sonny days, offered a similar degree of security.

This is the diametric OPPOSITE of the typical musician's life, which I perceive as very similar to the scenario and philosophy offered up by Mike. If you do the best job for the least money you can find a job on the road with some country legend (often in their own mind, but that's another story). When the legend decides to take a month or a year off, you are SCREWED, BLUED, and (often) TATTOED. If your musical ability, resume, and self-marketing skills are good enough you could probably find something else pretty quickly, but for one like me with a strong desire for financial stability, it wasn't a viable option. So I chose the corporate direction.

That direction included job security -- a regular pay check, regular salary increases, opportunity for advancement -- PLUS benefits like medical coverage and a retirement plan. The absence of those benefits weighed heavily in my decision not to do music for a living.

My point is (yes, I'm FINALLY getting to the point) that the last 10-15 years have ushered in some major changes in that understanding between me and Corporate America on which my decision was predicated. That's my beef -- they changed the rules on me while the game was in progress. To my mind, we are becoming more mobile -- with job-hopping becoming a way of life -- without the social and economic infrastructure to support it. In Europe, for example, many countries have nationalized benefits. Savings/retirement and medical coverage are provided by the government and the taxes to support that are higher -- often 50-60% or more of total income. The point is that the US AIN'T STRUCTURED FOR THAT SYSTEM.

I can feel empathy for the Opry greats. I'm as big a Leon Rhodes fan as there is and I played in a band with Buddy Harman's kids when I was a teenager growing up in Nashville. The Opry in those days was as different from what we see today as the corporate scene. The Opry has BECOME the corporate scene -- no different from any big business -- profit is paramount. I regret for my children (who are both adults now) that they have to endure this transition to a new world of employment and expectations without the systems to ensure their continued employment and benefits. I only hope I am lucky enough to avoid the axe for 5 or 6 more years so I can retire as planned.

Despite global warming, I have a distinct feeling that the world continues to get colder and colder . . . maybe I'm just becoming an old fart, but I liked the old system better.

LTB

Larry, your corporate america and the $$ is exactly what is lamented on David Frizzell's new song "Murder on Music Row", that I mentioned in another thread. It refers to what has happened to "real" country music on 16th Ave and the corporate $$. It also refers to drums bass and distorted guitars mixed up almost to the same volume level as the singer and the demise of the steel guitar (although the steel is still prevalent in a lot of cuts if for no other reason than to make it "country" - but that's for another thread).



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Franklin D-10
Keep it Country, Hoss

I think they should offer the job to Mr. Mike He has no trouble *ever* finding a job, And with the "Whopping" 19 credits! Wow!! kr

That Mike, He can't do no wrong.He sure has been blessed.Reckon his.......dont stink.
I bet his momma is proud of her son?

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Gentlemen,
In the past,it has always been the policy of the G.O.O to hire someone ONLY,if someone quits or dies.When Mr. Acuff was w/ us,this policy seemed to hold up.I hope Mr. Acuff is resting in peace,but I seriously doubt it.
Welcome to "Logan's Run,Nashville Style",gentlemen!!

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-=sr€=-

I know of no place that has a "lifetime" guarantee of a job. I'm just as miffed at the Opry firings as anyone and feel the Opry has succombed to Corporate ineptitude, however, it comes a time you have to go on, retire, or whatever. You may be the best in your field but there is still a time to hang it up.

Weldon moved on (for whatever real reason) after 25 or so years - which is an extremely long time for one gig and relatively rare.

I live in Florida, where retirees are a major part of the population, and there are many retired career musicians that I've met in the area - from Broadway musical orchestras to country. Many are still fantastic musicians but they also accept it was time to retire and move on.

BJ/Kyle-

Sorry guys. I tend to get carried away sometimes. I'm truly sorry if I came off overly arrogant and/or offended you guys in any way.

Please accept my sincerest best wishes for your continued personal and professional success.

mlt<p ALIGN=CENTER><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b">[This message was edited by Mike Tatro on 11-22-99]</FONT></P>

Mr. Larry Bell, Very well put as usual! You are certainly a scholar and a gentleman. Guys, make no mistake about it, Larry certainly could have made his living as a picker. It is unfortunate that the same morals and principles we subscribed to when we made the decisions to trust in "Corporate America" have fallen by the wayside. Dylan said it best and Mcguinn sang it even better, yes, "the times, they are a changin'"

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"Oh the girls all get prettier at closing time"

Mike, Apology accepted...partially. I'm happy to know you'll never need health insurance for you or your spouse, and if you do change jobs you can always get other coverage (maybe) at 2 or 3 times what you were paying. Then the "corporate gurus" decide you have become more of a liability than an asset so in comes a nice young person to work with you. The handwriting is on the wall but as you say, you can always find another job. Just make sure it pays MORE than what you're getting now because you'll need it. However, since you're close to retirement maybe you'll hang in there a few more years. Welcome to the new "Corporate World". As Jerry Reed's song goes, "I gave them the gold mine, they gave me the shaft". Yours truly, "Ben There".

Like everyone else I have charged into the Opry firings with anger. For calibre of Musicians let go and the Venue it is,I still don't believe it was needed. However I have too agree with JACK STONER totally. I am thankful Something inside me said Thats enough when I hit 55. (Wonder if it had anything to do with fewer venues ,changing crowds,Music)I had a hard time retiriring,staying away was hard. I managed to stay away except when freinds would Visit and want to go out. We'd find ourselves on some bandstand . I still have the urge But it's more of an ego challenge to see if I still can. It's still the lure of the audience. It will always be the need to be still accepted,recognized,not forgotten. But I can live with the great fact of"Been there ,done That". It will be hard for the opry staffers,But no one can "FIRE" the respect they gained,the persons they are. The timing and the way it was announced was the offense to me. The Opry used to be a family.Now one can see it's a "who is next" situation. Tune in next week for the continuing saga.

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cjc



<p ALIGN=CENTER><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b">[This message was edited by Joe Casey on 11-23-99]</FONT></P>

Jack
I guess part of "aging gracefully" is knowing when to "hang it up," but your post is very vague as to what criteria an aging player must use to make his decision to bow out. Should Tom Morrell, age 60, "hang it up?" How about Leon Chambers, Leon Rausch, Tommy Allsup, Johnny Bush, Ray Price, George Jones? Buddy Emmons is soon to be 63... what about him? Merle Haggard? Johnny Gimble?

What a tragedy for our music if all these guys should suddenly decide to "bow out gracefully!"

I will say that, IMHO, the time for a musician to quit is when you can no longer fulfill the expectations of the audience you're trying to reach. In other words, if you're a rock guitarist approaching 60 and you're overweight and gray, it might be time to stop courting alt.-rock bands with audiences of the 19-22 age group. But with trad. country, a player should be able to function well into his 60's and frequently even his 70's, if his picking is still good enough to cut it in the marketplace.

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members.aol.com/herbs10178/index.html

Herb agreed the Music business would be at a loss without those people. They are in a position to still attract a loyal audience ,and their tallents have not dwindled. There comes a time when you just can't hit home runs anymore. If one want's to settle for a few base hits once in a while that's accepted,But the big hitters still make all the money.

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cjc

Herb, when or at what age is the $64 dollar question. Corporate America faces that daily. Being musician's we would like to think that we are invincible or ageless but we are no different than any other occupation. At some point you have to go, whether it's by your choice or someone elses. It's not that you can't do your job, just at some point you have to make room. Then there are some that hang on till they become a liability rather than an asset.

I'm 61 and I've been retired for 3 years. If I tried to re-enter the work market, in my profession, reality would set in real fast.