Why so Elitist ?

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 13 May 2000 12:07 pm

I have noticed for some years that the "Exclusively Non Pedal" community seem to have alienated themselves from the mainstream of steel guitarists, even if only by adopting the description "Non Pedal". WHY ? Steel guitar is steel guitar, be it pedal, non pedal, acoustic, 6, 8., 10, 12, string, or whatever.
I have yet to meet a non pedal player who hasn't yearned for that elusive chord, or wanted to make that tricky run in slants a little more fluid. So why the steadfast elitist " I play NON pedal ", I really would like to know.
Long before pedal steel came along , players like Sol Hoopii used two guitars on recording sessions and changed over for the ' Jazzy" bits, later multi necked guitars expanded the players scope, a parallel development of levers to change the basic tuning eventually led to the pedal guitar we now know it, and I often wonder if Lani McIntire , Sol Hoopii, Andy Iona and other masters from the late 30's - early 40's were alive today would THEY not be a playing pedal steel. Some of the later day greats like Jules Ah See DID use pedals and I am of the opinion that a lot of the 'Hawaii Calls" era steel playing WAS with pedals (of sorts) maybe not so much in public, but on the recordings.

(SOME) Steel players do it without fretting

http://homepage.tinet.ie/~basilh/
http://www.stax-a-trax.com/

Marco Schouten · Post by **Marco Schouten** » 13 May 2000 12:40 pm

Sorry, but I don't agree with you.
I own a pedal steel and a non-pedal, and I feel that the sound of a non pedal steel is different. I heard someone play a Hawaiian song on an E9th pedal steel, and while all notes were correctly played, it just doesn't have the same atmosphere and feeling than when played on a lap steel.
So I can understand that many people are concerned that the lap steel will dissappear, it would mean a style of music would die. I think however that there is no hostillity between the non pedals and the pedals.

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Steelin' Greetings
Marco Schouten

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 13 May 2000 1:06 pm

Hi Marco,
Mahalo Niu for the reply, but, it's not the sound that's different but usually the STYLE adopted by the player.
to justify my previous post :-
Take for instance the Alfred Apaka Double album "The best of Alfred Apaka"
Decca # DXSB 7163, it's all pedal steel, in particular (for those who find it hard to distinguish their use) the last eight bars of "This Song of Love" (Da Hill Sigh Oh)
Jules has a 1 to 5 progression and you can distinctly hear the pedals in use for the change. I must admit that I hadn't noticed the use of pedal guitar on this album until John Marsden ( of the HSGA ) pointed it out to me
I know it’s quite possible to copy Jules’ version of Sand on a non pedal guitar, but , is it “set in stone” that HE recorded it on a non pedal guitar ? I’d like to hear the answer from someone who was at the session not from someone who can say “I heard him play it live, and it was just like the record”

There IS a certain way of using the pedals JUST to change the tuning and emulate a three or four neck non pedal steel......

I’m going to some albums from the 50’s and 60’s era and take a more analytical listen to them, one springs to mind right away, the Stars of Hawaii orchestra album “Steel Guitar”

BTW check out :- the tunes Analani e- Pua Mana
or ANY of the Hawaiian ones listed at my web site on the page marked " LINKS "
and then tell me that you can't get the

the same atmosphere and feeling than when played on a lap steel

Regards, Basil Henriques
EMMONS D-10 + Emmons D-10

Steel players do it without fretting

http://homepage.tinet.ie/~basilh/
http://www.stax-a-trax.com/

Walter Jones · Post by **Walter Jones** » 13 May 2000 2:04 pm

Basilh, very interesting. All I will say is that if you ever get a chance to listen to Billy Robinson play his lap steel make sure you do not miss it.[This message was edited by Walter Jones on 13 May 2000 at 03:05 PM.]

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 13 May 2000 2:26 pm

Hi Walter,
how do I get to hear Billy Robinson?
Has he CD's or tapes available ?

It's a long way from here to wherever.

Basil Henriques
Emmons D-10
and
Emmons D-10

Steel players do it without fretting

http://homepage.tinet.ie/~basilh/

http://www.stax-a-trax.com/[This message was edited by basilh on 13 May 2000 at 03:28 PM.]

Dave Webster · Post by **Dave Webster** » 13 May 2000 9:04 pm

Basil,
To me, the term "Elitists" also implies snobbery, which I simply don't find much of in this forum. The folks here have been incredibly generous with their time, patience, knowledge, and all the great stuff that is kindly shared...From professionals to people like myself, with a yearning to learn! By adopting the description "Non Pedal", and having a special section for it, seems like a prudent thing to do, as I'd be searching through alot of information that simply could not be applied to my very specific interest- the Non Pedal Steel guitar.
I certainly haven't seen much sign of anyone trying to elevate their social status through their interest in non-pedal, as opposed to pedal.
To search through volumes of pedal steel info, in my humble opinion (and for my specific interest), would be what I would consider an unneccessary 'waste of time'...
And as to the statement that "steel is steel"...wellllll, I almost started making a list of what I feel are major differences between varieties of steel guitar; then I thought, 'nahhhh'...thoughts of serious "writers/typers cramps" came to mind with that project...The results might be pretty interesting though!
[This message was edited by Dave Webster on 13 May 2000 at 10:11 PM.][This message was edited by Dave Webster on 13 May 2000 at 10:13 PM.]

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 14 May 2000 8:38 am

Dear Dave,

I agree with you 100% regarding the forum and it's contributors, but, the forum section entitled "No Peddlers" or indeed the forum itself, was NOT mentioned in my posting, I was attempting to start an on-line discussion on the subject stated.

And as to the statement that "steel is steel"...wellllll, I almost started making a list of what I feel are major differences between varieties of steel guitar; then I thought 'nahhhh'...thoughts of serious "writers/typers cramps" came to mind with that project...The results might be pretty interesting though!

If as you say, the results might be pretty interesting, don't worry about writer's cramp, let the "forumites" do it for you, post the subject!!.

I don't see any MAJOR differences between pedal and non pedal playing , just the different styles.
There's a lot of common ground between the variants of the steel guitar.

After all. my opinion is, just as yours , only one person's point of view.

------------------

Basil Henriques
Emmons D-10
and
Emmons D-10

Steel players do it without fretting

http://homepage.tinet.ie/~basilh/

http://www.stax-a-trax.com/

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 14 May 2000 12:49 pm

I don't think it's elitist, but I do think that non-pedal players hear a subtle difference that many pedal players miss. I wrote about it for The Pedal Press many years ago: www.b0b.com/sgwest/pp7809p6.htm

I love playing without pedals, but I get a bit frustrated when the band does a tune that really requires pedals. In the Country All-Stars, about a third of our tunes sound "wrong" without pedals. I usually just take the lap steel to rehearsals, but I like to use both when we do a show.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0bstamp.gif" width=72 height=72>Bobby Lee quasar@b0b.com gigs CDs
Sierra Session S-12 (E9), Speedy West D-10 (E9, D6),
Sierra S-8 Laptop (D13), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (D13, A6)

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 14 May 2000 3:10 pm

Ok b0b,
I see you point regarding the subtleties, I had never thought about it before. Your comments @ : www.b0b.com/sgwest/pp7809p6.htm
are MOST valid, and I think that the difference between a two note harmony with a slant and vibrato containing different string lengths and harmonic content and the same notes played on pedals with equal string length is very subtle but noticeable.

I also think that your terminology "Stubbornly opinionated" may be a much better description than the term I used.

BUT most pedal steelies say they play "Steel Guitar" taking it for granted that that means pedal steel, but a lot of the time they play pedal, non pedal and maybe dobro, whereas exclusively non pedal players stress the non pedal aspect, infering the superiority of their instrument, as though playing pedal steel is either cheating or taking the easy way out.

That's why I said Why so Elitist ?

------------------

Basil Henriques
Emmons D-10
and
Emmons D-10

Steel players do it without fretting

http://homepage.tinet.ie/~basilh/

http://www.stax-a-trax.com/
[This message was edited by basilh on 14 May 2000 at 04:12 PM.]

Richard Vogh · Post by **Richard Vogh** » 14 May 2000 5:37 pm

To answer the "Billy Robinson tapes" question, go to an older forum thread of January 5 through 7, 2000. Here is a link to it.

Forum thread with Billy Robinson info.

Billy Robinson is the master of string pulls on a lap steel.

[This message was edited by Richard Vogh on 14 May 2000 at 06:40 PM.]

Chris Walke · Post by **Chris Walke** » 16 May 2000 12:57 pm

I specify nonpedal specifically because most people figure I'm talking about pedal steel when I say steel guitar. I don't play pedal steel, and I couldn't tell people much about pedal steel. I don't think it's an elitist attitude so much as a more specific description. Dobro players generally call themselves dobro players or reso players, but they actually could call themselves steel guitarists, couldn't they?

Specification avoids confusion that's all. Why someone chooses nonpedal over pedal may be a different story. I chose nonpedal because I could afford it, thinking I would switch over someday. I guess I still might switch at some point, but right now I don't see any reason to. I love playing nonpedal.

I think nonpedal players have plenty of respect for pedal players and vice versa. I don't think there is any kind of elitist attitude...at least I don't have one.

Chuck Trombley · Post by **Chuck Trombley** » 16 May 2000 2:11 pm

Bob: Read your Pedal Press 1978 where you mentioned Elsie Jaggers. I've tried to contact her for several years but no one knows here whereabout. Bud Tutmarc lost touch with her. How about you? She was an excellent C#M7th player having studied under Sol Hoo'pii. I have a number of her arrangements, all in C#M7th. WOuld be willing to share some of them in the Tab post. What do you think?

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 16 May 2000 4:01 pm

Please do share Elsie's arrangements with us! I, for one would love to se them. Margie Mays is another great non-pedal player who studied with Belva Dickerson who studied with Sol.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 16 May 2000 4:45 pm

I haven't heard from Elsie Jaggers in many years. Joe Goldmark or Tom Bradshaw might know what's become of her.

It's probably not a good idea to post her arrangements without her permission.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0bstamp.gif" width=72 height=72>Bobby Lee quasar@b0b.com gigs CDs
Sierra Session S-12 (E9), Speedy West D-10 (E9, D6),
Sierra S-8 Laptop (D13), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (D13, A6)