Are You Violating Copyright Law When Posting Tab

Pat Burns · Post by **Pat Burns** » 25 Jul 2006 6:44 pm

It seems it's being tested...see the comments on the home page of "Guitar Tab Universe" posted last week, copied below (at the risk of being prosecuted for copying it here!).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>July 17, 2006

To all "Guitar Tab Universe" visitors:

The company which owns this website has been indirectly threatened (via our ISP) with legal action by the National Music Publishers' Association (NMPA) as well as the Music Publishers' Association (MPA) on the basis that sharing tablature constitutes copyright infringement. At what point does describing how one plays a song on guitar become an issue of copyright infringment? This website, among other things, helps users teach eachother how they play guitar parts for many different songs. This is the way music teachers have behaved since the first music was ever created. The difference here is that the information is shared by way of a new technology: the Internet.

When you are jamming with a friend and you show him/her the chords for a song you heard on the radio, is that copyright infringement? What about if you helped him/her remember the chord progression or riff by writing it down on, say, a napkin... infringement? If he/she calls you later that night on the phone or e-mails you and you respond via one of those methods, are you infringing? I don't know... but I would really like to know. If anyone has information on this, please email support@guitartabs.cc.

Apparently, the NMPA/MPA believes that the Internet may be on the foul side of the legality line they would like to draw here. For me, I see no difference. It's teachers educating students and covered as a 'fair use' of the tablature. The teachers here don't even get paid nor do the students have to pay this website to access the lessons.

An attack on this website is really an attack on every one of you who have told someone (in person, or via the written word, telephone, or e-mail) how you play a song on guitar. And who, especially among small websites, has the deep pockets to fight the NMPA/MPA? They use scare tactics while there is, in fact, no legal precedent on this matter (to the best of our knowledge). If you are interested in expressing your opinion to the NMPA/MPA, contact them via their respective websites. Please do not resort to vulgar language or insults.

Millions of people use the Internet to learn guitar, in one form or another. It appears the NMPA/MPA and their members do not want to support us and help us further our education. To you visitors from outside the USA or UK, can you find your favorite artists' "official sheet music" at your local music store? Even in the United States and United Kingdom, we often can not. The NMPA/MPA have a choice to make: either they support us as aspiring guitarists, or they choose to alienate their customer base. To date, not one sheet music publisher has contacted this website to either inquire as to our activities or to express interest in any type of dialogue or collaboration whatsoever. All we deserve is a cold, indirect, impersonal threat without any explanation? They should embrace new technologies or else become relics of the old economy.

Since I'm now 'worried' about working around tabs at all, I'm in a tough situation! Luckily, I'm fairly confident that if I alone listen to a song and then figure out how to play it by ear, I will then be able to enjoy using that knowledge to practice and improve my guitar playing skills. Is that what is necessary for everyone to do? Work these things out alone? What a sad situation.

Sincerely,
Rob Balch

Manager of "Guitar Tab Universe"

If you would like to help out and join the effort to fight for our freedom to tab and share, please check out MuSATO.

You can comment on this statement and/or situation here.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here's a link to the webpage -
http://www.guitartabs.cc/

....and here's a link to the message I got when I went to a page to see posted tab...it's been removed with a notice that "this download has been disabled, a copyright fair use dispute is pending"...

http://www.guitartabs.cc/gotourl.php?fileid=13321456&server=5

[This message was edited by Pat Burns on 25 July 2006 at 09:01 PM.]

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 26 Jul 2006 1:22 pm

They can just kiss it here. I think they're no more than vultures that don't give a third of the money to the songwriters. Being in the bar business for 16 years I had more than my share of run-ins with these kind of people. So let me see here, if they want royalties on tab and then royalties when you play the tune in some bar or other event somewhere and they get more money when it's played on the radio or jukebox where does it end? And for all of the song writers here that consider their instrumental music sacred please spare me as outside of a very few here on this forum your tunes will only be heard by a very few so I don't consider that to count as much. Then there's these other fanatics that go crazy when we sell our used CD's or make a copy for a friend or even a band member to learn. I just don't want to hear it. I contend that a lot of music gets heard for the first time by musicians like us that are playing live somewhere. I also tend to think that most of the records sold on the new country market today never had a thing to do with the song but more for the jeans the guy or gal was wearing or maybe the very low cut top these country beauties are showing off today. Maybe their plastic surgeon should try to cash in too. I mean after all she's going to have them from now on right? It's only a song for crying out loud, not the cure for cancer.[This message was edited by Frank Parish on 26 July 2006 at 02:24 PM.]

Mike Wilson · Post by **Mike Wilson** » 26 Jul 2006 3:39 pm

What Frank said...

John Coffman · Post by **John Coffman** » 26 Jul 2006 5:47 pm

I guess we could just stop using any of them and make them get a real job

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 28 Jul 2006 7:51 am

Agreed. NMPA MPA BMI ASCAP are all vultures. I am a BMI member, been to the NYC offices, like any large corporation they need to more and more profit to keep the elite and their hookers happy. That means more laws and lawsuits for you and me.

cheers,
Drew

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Drew Howard - website - Fessenden, Derby and Fender guitars, 70's Fender Twin, etc.

Rick Kornacker · Post by **Rick Kornacker** » 29 Jul 2006 4:22 pm

Hey Pat!
A very good and convoluted question! As a teacher and author of instructional materials for steel guitar I've been concerned with these issues. Firstly, if your talking a " pure "instrumental version of a tune, i.e. definite melody line/chord progression then it would be a violation( if it is not public domain, which many old classic country tunes are. Next, we love our instrument and the music that we play, but the total number of players here is "a drop in the bucket" in the grand scheme of things. Pursuing copyright infringements for the writing or posting of steel tab is not worth the effort for any legitimate royalties that could be legally recovered.Lastly, posting steel tab for intros, fills, and endings that relate to a certain tune is a non-issue since this material isn't anybody's property. A session player's contribution to a recorded tune isn't his property or the record company's either for that matter. He's paid for what he plays that day and receives a phonograph record check yearly which is based on a certain amount of points on record sales.The player's only "property" is aesthetic credit for his performance(such as Tom Brumley's "Together Again"). I personally have had one experience where a person posted tab(on the "Forum") that I had written and produced, without permission or credit which would basically be considered a form of plagerism...so there's another aspect of the issue. Just some input..hope it helps. Regards, RK

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Pat Burns · Post by **Pat Burns** » 31 Jul 2006 1:16 pm

Thanks, Rick, that's a well reasoned answer. On the guitar tab sites, a lot of people only post the lyrics and chord progression (or their best guess

). Doesn't seem to me that should be an infringement. For that matter, posting tab of a guitar lead or break shouldn't be an infringement either....it's just that sometimes maybe a "star" played the break, instead of a session player.[This message was edited by Pat Burns on 31 July 2006 at 02:17 PM.]

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 1 Aug 2006 9:10 am

I've seen other sites as well close down their tab access for fear of a lawsuit untill this gets all sorted out.

Jimmie Vaughn has no tab up anywhere that I can find because his camp must go after sites I'm thinking. I emailed Jimmie to see if I could post his "hillbillies from outer-space" song which I tabbed out on NP C6 6 stringer and told him if I didn't hear back from him then it will be agreed by the parties that he is giving permission to post (which would help to sell the CD). I further went on to state that I was exchanging free advertising to sell his CD in exchange for posting the tab. He never got back to me and I still have been reluctant to post the tab.

Sidney Ralph Penton · Post by **Sidney Ralph Penton** » 1 Aug 2006 2:13 pm

well i don't think they can do anything about it. first of all there is copyright on just about all music that is recorded. records, tapes, 8 tracks or cd's. I would say that this is to emply that no one may record or copy on to record, tapes, 8 tracks or cd's or any other such type of recording device and sell or distribute said product. to the best of my knowlegde there is nothing about sheet music as far as using. there might be some leagle stuff if your copying the sheet music and distrubiting or selling it for profit. how many bands do music on stage that is a copy of the origional. personally i don't think that copy sheet music is against the law providing it is not being sold or distrubited for profit. just another oppinion. doc

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zum SD10 peavy session 400 peavy XR600G
if its not a zum steel it isn't real
just trying to steel for the Lord>

Rick Alexander · Post by **Rick Alexander** » 1 Aug 2006 9:37 pm

Teaching in and of itself does not constitute a copyright infringement.
Distributing unauthorized copies of sheet music, lyrics or tablature (even to students) does constitute a copyright infringement.

That's not my opinion - it's copyright law, and it applies to web pages as well as hard copy.

Obviously they're not going to go after a musician who jots down a few chords on a nappy, and they probably wouldn't bother with someone who quotes a few lines from their favorite song. They generally go after the big sites with a lot of songs posted on them.
That's where the $$ is, whether in licensing fees or judgements.

A few years ago I received a letter from BMI telling me I had to pay them a licensing fee for a number of BMI songs on my web site - audio, lyrics, tab etc. I called them and informed them that the BMI songs on my web site were all written by me.
They graciously waived the licensing fee . .

Pat Burns · Post by **Pat Burns** » 2 Aug 2006 5:56 am

I don't disagree that posting unauthorized copies of copyrighted material is against the law.....but tab is usually not copyrighted material. In fact, the tab is usually created by the person posting it and offered for free. I see printed lyrics on the CD jacket as part of the package that I buy, but I don't recall ever seeing the song tabbed out on the CD or record jacket. If I hear a song and take it upon myself to create tab that doesn't exist and then decide to share it, why do I have to pay somebod? I don't know the answer, but I'd like to know. A similar situation must exist when someone translates a book from one language to another, since tab is really just another written form of musical notation...does the writer of the translation have to pay royalties to the original author? Does the translator receive a mechanical royalty for his work, not to mention his ownership of the new intellectual property which the translation is?

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 2 Aug 2006 6:59 am

Lets be clear on exactly WHAT is COPYRIGHTED

When someone writes a song, what makes that song unique (and copyrightable) is a melody and set of lyrics that have never been used in another copyrighted song. The writer prepares a lead sheet consisting of musical notation for the melody along with the lyrics that go with that melody and submits it for protection.

With that out of the way, there IS a LOT of INTERPRETATION. That's why there are courts of law where we pay expensive patent attorneys to represent us and judges determine whether an offense has taken place and what the penalties are. There are regulations that determine what constitutes plagiarism -- exactly how many notes or words in a row must be the same and stuff like that.

As I understand it, a SOLO on someone's record is not part of the copyright coverage and creating tablature of that solo is not illegal, according to attorneys I've asked, UNLESS it is exactly the melody.

If I were to chart out someone else's solo from a record to distribute to others I would try my best to consult the player for permission, although the player really has no legal rights to the performance. Session musicians are paid as 'work for hire'. I've been told that, unless the player is the artist (e.g., in a band), songwriter, or producer, they are paid as a 'hired hand' with no royalties.

I have used the Harry Fox Agency for the permission to record tunes I didn't write on my most recent CD. It ain't cheap but if you are selling several hundred at $10-15 a pop it comes back pretty quickly. And you get the peace of mind that (1) nobody will come after you and (2) those who wrote the song will get SOMETHING (certainly not all of what you pay) for your using it.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 2 Aug 2006 5:12 pm

...a SOLO on someone's record is not part of the copyright coverage and creating tablature of that solo is not illegal...

That's only if the solo doesn't contain, or is not a facsimile of the melody line.

Tab, whether or not you want to admit it, is a written representation of the melody, which is protected by copyrights. Sure, it will be a few years, but anyone who thinks they're not eventually going to go after folks who post or download songs done in tab is pretty naive, IMHO.

Nothing stays free forever; enjoy it while you can.

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 02 August 2006 at 06:14 PM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 3 Aug 2006 7:32 am

Sure, as I said before, if it's the melody it's protected . . . BUT . . . how many solos are an exact (within the definition imposed by law) regurgitation of the melody? Not many to my recollection. Most solos I hear (especially in recent times) are countermelodies or just appropriate phrases for the chord progression. BUT if they do restate the melody they shouldn't be tabbed out without royalty.

I have no argument with the tab is notation idea. I tend to use tab to notate stuff OTHER THAN the melody most often but grant that it is not a good idea to publish -- either for money OR FOR FREE -- any copyrighted melody or lyrics IN ANY FORM.

The reality is the fewer folks who see it the less likely it is that the holder of the copyright will come gunnin' for you, but you are infringing on someone's rights if you abuse a copyright.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Jimmy Smith · Post by **Jimmy Smith** » 3 Aug 2006 2:35 pm

to hell with copyrights and there laws.

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Pat Burns · Post by **Pat Burns** » 7 Aug 2006 5:32 pm

...don't sugar-coat it, Jimmy.

I had just posted a piece on derivative works that I subsequently erased, because I posted it before I read the Copyright Office's rule on WHO can author a derivative work and copyright it...only the original author or someone authorized by the original author has the right to a derivative work. The definition of derivative work, among other things, is a translation or a new musical arrangement, either of which could describe tab. I stand corrected.

Here's a link to the U.S. Copyright Office page I refer to, it's .

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ14.html [This message was edited by Pat Burns on 07 August 2006 at 06:53 PM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 8 Aug 2006 10:18 am

Pat,
If you're saying that an ad lib solo that does NOT restate the melody but adheres to the song's chord progression constitutes a new musical arrangement assuming I will have to disagree with you. I still maintain that an ad lib solo played on a recording is not protected by copyright law in the same way that the melody and lyrics are protected. The melody and lyrics define the song. The solo is not, IMHO, a 'derivative work'. Tab of the melody written over the lyrics and chord symbols IS an infringement.

Once again, the courts sometimes make some really interesting decisions. Therein lies that reality of the law, not in the text of the statutes. To be convicted you don't just need to commit the act of infringement. Someone has to actually sue you to recover what they feel is their property.

That's my take on it in any case. And I'm not a lawyer but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express.

It's ok Jimmy, Pat and I will come visit you in prison.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 8 Aug 2006 11:51 am

I certainly hope it never gets to the point where chord patterns are copyrightable...
Then were all up a creek...

Pat Burns · Post by **Pat Burns** » 8 Aug 2006 11:53 am

I agree with you 100%, Larry....my post relates to derivative works of those things which are protected by copyright. I agree with you, if something is not protected by copyright to begin with, such as a lead or break performed by a session person which does not follow the melody, then tabbing it is not a violation and the concept of a derivative work is moot. I suppose you could play the lead break from "Comfortably Numb" in a kazoo band on the Tonight Show....as long as you stop before the last 4 bars.

I don't think they'll throw Jimmy in jail, as long as he can keep on paying.

Lawrence Lupkin · Post by **Lawrence Lupkin** » 21 Aug 2006 4:52 am

From the front page of the business section in today's New York Times: www.nytimes.com/2006/08/21/technology/21ecom.html

The publishers told the sites that if they did not remove the tablatures, they could face legal action or their Internet service providers would be pressured to shut down their sites. All of the sites have taken down their tabs voluntarily, but grudgingly.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 21 Aug 2006 6:15 am

licenses/ mechanical licenses are for all forms of the MUSIC and has nothing to with with getting paid or doing it for free.

The License is not TO SELL..it is to manufacture and distribute, even if it is for free.

IF you make a recording and GIVE it away, you are still in copyright violation.

IF you write out a piece of copyrighted music and GIVE it away, you are still in violation.

you and your Grandma are going to prison..[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 21 August 2006 at 08:00 AM.]

C. Christofferson · Post by **C. Christofferson** » 21 Aug 2006 12:31 pm

T, that sounds solid but could you quote paragraph numbers where in law it says that so we can be sure it's not just hearsay opinion.
I guess you couldn't argue with it IF the prosecutor, the jury and the judge had, on their way to court, obeyed ALL traffic laws and ordinances (including blood alcohol levels). Otherwise wouldn't it just be more of our endless hypocrocy?

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 21 Aug 2006 1:45 pm

Here is a page with a lot of info on how licensing works http://www.harryfox.com/index.jsp

and a bunch of legalese here http://creativecommons.org/about/licenses/meet-the-licenses

It is complicated stuff, when exploded into the reality of both our musical, business, and legal systems.

What it boils down to is that a person or company can file with the Federal Government to obtain protection on an original work. Any time someone copies that work (according to some really complex legal code) that person owes the copyright owner a fee. On the surface it's pretty simple. When you apply it to a bunch of cases with every complication and mitigating circumstance you can think of, the law becomes pretty complicated too.

Who ever let a little hypocrisy spoil a good lawsuit?

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps