The Steel Guitar Forum

could someone please tab some 7th scales on the different 2 string combinations

3-4 - 4-5 -5-6 - 5-8
Thanks in advance

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JIM
"Carter SD10" "74" LTD & NASHVILLE 400, Profex II "55" Esquire, "63 Epiphone, "63" Precision,
"71" Jazz

by a 'seventh scale' I assume you mean the major scale with a flatted (sometimes called minor) seventh.
So, in C the notes would be C D E F G A Bb C
Rather than thinking strings I would suggest you think musical intervals.

The scale itself looks like this
1---------------------------------------------
2------------------8b-------------------------
3---------------------------------------------
4---------------------8-----------------------
5-----------8--8A-----------------------------
6------8-8B-----------------------------------
7---8-----------------------------------------
8-8-------------------------------------------
--C-D--E-F--G--A---Bb-C
(NOTE ON THE TAB: b = lower 1/2 step. ABC pedals are denoted by those letters.)
Now for a little magic . . .
Follow along, here. We're gonna play an F Major scale starting on C and IT'S GONNA BE THE SAME NOTES.
REMEMBER: FMajor is F G A Bb C D E F
NOW START ON C AND GO THROUGH TO AN OCTAVE ABOVE: C D E F G A Bb C
WOW! It's the same scale. You just discovered what the music snobs ( ) call the Mixolydian Mode

Anyplace you can play an F Major scale you can play a C7 scale because they contain the SAME NOTES.

How can we use this?
Here's an example
1---------------------------------------------
2---------------------------------------------
3---------------------------------------------
4---------------------------------------------
5------------------------1--------------------
6-----------------1---1B----------------------
7--------------1------------------------------
8-------1b--1---------------------------------
9---------------------------------------------
10-1-1A---------------------------------------
---C-D--E---F--G--A---Bb-C
All we did was play an F Major scale

I assume that what you are asking for is a harmonized scale off the Mixolydian or dominant 7th scale. Thirds are a typical harmony, so we'll look at that. First part is same as a major scale

1-----------------8---------------------------
2-----------8b----8b--------------------------
3--------------------8------------------------
4--------------8-----8------------------------
5------8-8A-8--8A-----------------------------
6-8-8B-8-8B-----------------------------------
7---8-----------------------------------------
8-8-------------------------------------------
--E F- G A- B -C-- D- E
--C D- E F- G -A-- Bb C
All I did was skip a note -- refer to the notes in the scale (CDEFGABbC). That's what thirds are. Some of them are major thirds (like C and E) some are minor (like D and F or E and G) but they are all thirds. Now you know the formula. I'll leave it up to you to figure how to harmonize the scale in the A+B pedals down position (3rd fret for C)

Another common harmony is fifths. You skip three note names for fifths. REMEMBER: CDEFGABbCDEFGABbC through two octaves.
Start on C -- what's the fifth?
Skip three note names and the fourth one is G
C and G will be our first pair of notes. Root (C) is on the bottom and fifth (G) is on the top. What's the next one?????
D is on the bottom, so (skip three and take the fourth) it's A.
C/G and D/A are our first two pairs of harmonized notes. YOU DO THE REST. This should give you the tools to harmonize the b7 or Mixolydian scale in many different ways. If I do it for you, you won't remember it. If you do it, YOU WILL. Other variations might include voicing the 3rd or 5th on the bottom with the tonic on top or playing the scale up the neck rather than across. The notes are the same no matter how you slice it. Now, your job is to FIND THEM. Good luck.

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 31 March 2003 at 05:03 PM.]</p></FONT>

Nice job Larry

Whew! Another "theory" workout.Good stuff Larry, thanks, (slow is real-for me!)
How about "Pentatonic" stuff? I seem to stumble on this one. It's like I see the apple on the tree and know it's ripe but need a ladder to pick it (ha)!

ok -- you asked for it
There are two types of pentatonic scales, but they're really the same because they are enharmonically related (fancy way of saying they contain the same notes). E.g.,
CMajPent: C D F G A (C)
the 'relative minor' (6th degree of the C scale) is A, so A minor Pentatonic is the same scale starting on A. I.e.,
AmiPent: A C D F G (A)

The best way to approach this is to draw a fretboard chart. Start with no pedals, then add the A pedal separately, B pedal separately, A+B, E to D# lever, etc. (the ones listed are most important for the task at hand. Write out the first 15 frets or so and LOOK FOR WAYS TO PLAY C D F G A.

One logical way is at the 8th fret
4----------------------8----------------------
5--------------8---8A-------------------------
6----------8B---------------------------------
7------8--------------------------------------
8--8------------------------------------------
---C---D---F---G---A---C
Since the AmiPent is the same notes . . .
1-----------------------------8---11---------
2--------------------------------------------
3--------------------------------------11--13
4--------------------------8-----------------
5------------------8---8A---------------------
6-------------8B-----------------------------
7----------8----------------------------------
8------8--------------------------------------
9--------------------------------------------
10-8A----------------------------------------
---A---C---D---F---G---A---C---D---F---G---A
--hold A+B--release A--add A again

That's just one of MANY ways to play it.
I'm not gonna do your homework for you (you know the drill from the first exercise), but I will show you another useful position to find that cluster of notes.

Assuming you have a lever that lowers your 2nd string D# to C# and 9th D to C#, you have two octaves -- almost straight across the first fret: i.e.,
1-----------------------------------1--------
2---------------------------1bb--------------
3---------------------------------------1---4
4-------------------------------1------------
5-----------------------1--------------------
6-------------------1------------------------
7---------------1----------------------------
8-----------1--------------------------------
9-------1b-----------------------------------
10--1----------------------------------------
----C---D---F---G---A---C---D---F---G---A---C
You see the basic principle. I'll leave it up to you to tell THE REST OF THE STORY.

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 01 April 2003 at 11:11 AM.]</p></FONT>

Very cool Larry. My question is: whats the theory behind constructing harmonized minor scales?

I have my fretboard all loaded in excel with a search macro - so I can find it - once I know what I'm looking for.

I've done some light searching of the jazz sites and haven't found anything on this.



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Dayton Osland
Shobud S10

Dayton,
You can harmonize virtually any scale in thirds or fifths. Just skip one note name for thirds and three for fifths. Write out the scale in two octaves to help with the notes where the harmony 'wraps around'. Also, voice it both ways -- root on top and harmony on top for thirds and fifths.

We discussed the Mixolydian mode when talking about playing over Dom7 chords. There's another mode called the Dorian mode that includes a b3 (making it minor) and b7 (making it a dominant vs major7). For example, if you play a mi7 chord the Dorian scale (which is actually just the Major scale starting on the second note) is a good choice. Since it is related enharmonically (SAME NOTES) to the major scale, if you know how to harmonize the major scale, you know how to harmonize the minor (or minor 7th) scale. An example would be to play a CMaj scale starting on D -- DO IT - (D E F G A B C D) it's Dminor with a flatted 7th. Play a GMaj scale starting on A (A B C D E F# G A) it's Aminor with a flatted 7th. In most country or swing music the mi7 is virtually interchangeable with the pure minor chord, so this approach works great.

In terms of how to PLAY it, there are two approaches:
* start with a Major chord scale -- single notes or harmonized -- and start on the second note. If you're playing CMajor at the 8th fret, instead of starting on the 8th string and ending on the 4th, start on the 7th and add the 1st string on top. (EXAMPLES 1 & 2)
* think about how you play minor chords and center around those positions. Make a fretboard chart that shows all notes on all strings from the open position to the 15th fret for the A pedal (C#mi open), A+B pedals (F#mi open), and E to D# lever (G#mi open). CMaj is an easy key to deal with -- no sharps or flats -- so Dmi (or D Dorian) also has no sharps or flats. A pedal on 1st fret / A+B on 8th fret / D# lever at 6th fret.

EXAMPLE 1 - CMajor scale harmonized in thirds
1--------------------------8-----------------
2-----------------(8)------8-----------------
3------------------------------8-------------
4-----------------(8b)-8-------8-------------
5---------8---8A---8---8A--------------------
6--8--8B--8---8B-----------------------------
7-----8--------------------------------------
8--8-----------------------------------------

EXAMPLE 2 - Dminor scale harmonized in thirds
1-----------------------8------8----------
2---------------8-------8-----------------
3---------------------------8--8B---------
4-------------------8-------8-------------
5------8---8A---8---8A--------------------
6--8B--8---8B-----------------------------
7--8--------------------------------------
8-----------------------------------------

You know the drill -- find as many ways to play this as you can. Think about the pedals and combinations that give you minor chords and work those out first. They won't necessarily all fall on the same fret. You will have to use bar movement, perhaps between other pedal positions. But there are a bunch of ways to do it. Good luck.

I almost forgot
There ARE other minor scales: melodic minor, harmonic minor, and several others that include the minor third (b3). You will see references to those on the jazz/theory sites and I encourage you to listen to them. They are useful as well, but I'm tired of typing. Perhaps another day.

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 02 April 2003 at 07:00 AM.]</p></FONT>

Larry, you have a very comprehensible way of explaning these things. I'll get to work on it! Thanks alot and best regards.

Thanks Larry,

I know/knew that the single note scale was simply the major scale from the two. It never occurred to me that the same harmonization works. Thanks for the insite.

Dayton