The Steel Guitar Forum

New to this and need some help--I understand that the 1-10 lines represent the strings, the numbers on the string lines represent frets and the ABCs refer to pedals, correct? How about the Rs - would that be knee levers? Any other helpful hints?

Yes Missy. The R is raise, the knee lever that raises the 4th and 8th string E's to F. And L would be lower, lowering the E's to D#. I forget what your Sidekick has but if it is 3+1 then you probably only have the lower. Unfortunately, welcome to the limitations of a 3+1. But take heart--once upon a time PSGs had one pedal. Period.
So although tab might be frustrating sometimes, there's music in those strings.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jon Light on 11 May 2000 at 02:53 PM.]</p></FONT>

I’m no expert on this, but I don't believe there is really a “standardized” tab system. (See the thread on “Standard TAB” on Bar Chatter.)

However some things do seem to be “standard.”
In E9 tuning, “A”, “B” and “C” refer to the first three pedals (usually set up left to right in what is called the “Emmons” setup - the alternative is to have them reversed - C-B-A - in what is called the “Day” setup - in reference to Buddy Emmons and Jimmy Day).

The knee levers are where it’s up for grabs. “Usually” the lever that lowers the 4th/8th string E to Eb/D#is called the “D” lever. The lever that raises those strings to F is called the “F” lever.

Jeff Newman calls the lever that lowers the second string Eb/D# to a D or C# the “E” lever; the lever that raises the 1st/7th string F# to G the “G” lever; and the lever that lowers the 5th/10th string B to A# the “X” lever.

The “R” and “L” designations are, most likely, “raise” and “lower” indications for the 4th/8th string E.

Most commercially available TAB will have a “legend” that spells out what the different letters are referring to in that particular players TAB.

Now that you’re really confused, pick up a copy of Winnie Winston’s book “Pedal Steel Guitar” and check out some of the copedant listings of various players listed in the back of the book! <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Mark Herrick on 11 May 2000 at 03:13 PM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Mark Herrick on 11 May 2000 at 03:39 PM.]</p></FONT>

Missy,
Jon is so right, there is still a lot of music in your Sidekick. The steel I have now has all I need on it, but I have played my share of the Sidekicks, Mavericks, etc...

After playing a pro model steel, I went back and played on a student model for a while. It actually helped my playing...got me to thinking about alternate ways of playing things than I was used to.

A little off the topic of your post I know, but I thought I'd mention it.

Thanks - yeah, I kinda figured that there would be some music in tab that I wouldn't be able to exactly duplicate on my Sidekick. I'll just keep feeling around for alternate ways which should make it loads of fun!!!! It's still good to know what some of the indicators are, though. That's one of the reasons I was so excited when I came across this instrument after all this time...it's been three years since I played and that was only for about two or three months. Guess I kinda wanted to walk before I ran..thanks for the help!!

"R" means "Raise", and "L" means "Lower",
no matter what knee lever, or which neck
the tab is writen for.

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Dino

Missy,
I was looking around on the tab and realaudio site that Rebel and Ricky have...b0b has a link to it. There's some really good tab there that would work well with your Sidekick. I noticed in the 1999 section, there was a couple of good ones that only used the A & B pedals. And these were off some of the top songs last year! So you'll find plenty of stuff there to keep you busy for a while!

Hope this helps.
L.

I too practised for a year or so, than didnt play for 15 years, untill about 2 moths ago. always too busy or so. Now i'm wondering how my playing would be if i kept on practising all those years. By the way Missy, do you also like to start with the last song of your instruction book, and than backwards?

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Steelin' Greetings
Marco Schouten

Yes, Marco, starting at the beginning has never been much of a challenge for me!!!!!!!

Missy, If your having a problem with a song or phraze, post it along with your pedal set-up and some of the members may be able to give you alternative ways of play it with your present set-up.

Hi there everyone. I too play a 3+1.It,s a
Sho-Bud Pro 1.The knee lever drops 4 & 8 to
Eb.Could anyone help me with learning those
triplet runs you hear on Don't rock the Jukebox and tonight the heartaches on me.
I just can't seem to get em down. Any suggetions or exercizes would be great .
thanks ,Dan

I'm really comfused now.....

<SMALL>"R" means "Raise", and "L" means "Lower", no matter what knee lever, or which neck the tab is writen for.</SMALL>

I thought that :

1) RKR ment push the Right Knee lever right.
2) LKL ment push the Left Knee lever left.

As I have 4 knee levers on my ax and they are set up in the "standard" mix of changes, This "R" means raise and "L" means lower isn't correct. And it will not track with any of the tab stuff I've seen here !!

Please help me out here....
Have I been doing this all wrong allthese years?

Tablature shows which strings get pulled up or down to play a lick. It doesn't show you where those pulls are located on your guitar.

Abbreviations like RKL and RKR would be found on someone's personal tuning chart, not in tablature.

Thanks, Earnest.....

I guess I will have to try this and see how it works out. Your post does make sence too,as it would have the desired result of a tone change or note temperment.

Hey guys......
slip over to "Pedal Steel Techicnal" and read the posts about the knee levers......

Now, This is the way I though the levers were to tabed, and read.

I'm not sure which set of us is "right" on this, (and DON'T wish to start a war either) but I think the "PedalSteel Tech" post are more correct. After A/B several songs, using the explanation here, then using the translation from the other page, I find that the posts from "Pedal Steel Tech" are more acceptable and fit the "TAB" sheets.

bOb......
How about combining these two theads into one common one and let us kick this around a bit more.

There's no way to combine topics, Bill. Sorry.

bOb....

If you don't mind, I did a grab of this topic from the Pedal-Steel Tech section of your forumn and as I think it would fit in here with this discussion, With your permission, It is as follows......

If this too much for one singular post, pleas feel free to delete it as you see fit.



John Gretzinger
Member
Northridge, CA
posted 19 May 2000 11:11 AM
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OK - here is how new I really am to all this...
I'm finally getting around to trying to tune my MSA Classic D-10 (E9 neck only - so far the C6 is just for looks). The guitar came with an older Jeff Newman tuning chart that shows the "G" knee lever with the 1st and 7th strings raised to "G". Mine raises the 1st string but lowers the 6th string.

The guitar is double raise and lower capable so I'm open to suggestions.

Oh yes, I've finally figured out that RKR is not Right Knee Right, but Right Knee Raise. So what do I call this pedal? It's physically located on the right side of the guitar toward the center as opposed to the "E" lever which lowers the 2nd and 9th strings.

Thanks,

John


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MSA D-10
'63 Gibson Hummingbird
16/15c Hammered Dulcimer


Bobby Bowman
Member
Cypress, Texas, USA
posted 19 May 2000 11:39 AM
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John,
Right knee right is the proper term, not right knee raise. It means a lever on your right leg that moves to the right. RKL would be right knee left, LKL would be left knee left, LKR would be left knee right, LKV would be left knee vertical (vertical levers are levers that you push up instead of side to side). You can raise or lower or combine both on any lever/pedal. There are several different allocations floating around out there for what the D, E, F, G, H, X, V and so on levers do respectively. More important is that you know what your levers/pedals do, and when, where and how to use them. Call them whatever you want, just be aquainted with them. A pedal/lever set up on a guitar is commonly called a "copedent". The usual first three floor pedals on an E-9'th set up are refered to as the A, B, and C pedals and after that comes the allocations for the levers. D, E, F and so on. Whereas on a guitar with more than the A, B, C pedals, (usually a double neck guitar) the other pedals are refered to with numbers. i.e., pedal 4, pedal 5, pedal 6 and so on. Hope this helps a little.
BB
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If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!


[This message was edited by Bobby Bowman on 19 May 2000 at 11:48 AM.]

Mark Herrick
Member
New York, New York
posted 19 May 2000 11:43 AM
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The designations for the actual/physical knee levers themselves has generally been:
LKL = Left Knee Left
LKR = Left Knee Right
LKV = Left Knee Vertical
RKR = Right Knee Right
RKL = Right Knee Left

If there are additional knee levers they might be designated as LKL2 LKR2 etc. (Not even to mention something like the Crawford Cluster!)

What each of those knee levers does (raise or lower; and which strings it does them on) is entirely up to you.

So, for instance, you might like to have your E string lowers on the RKR. (Just an example, not a recommendation.)

I don’t know the MSA personally, but it should be a relatively easy change to make your 7th string on the “G” lever a raise by moving the pull rod from the lower portion of the changer finger to the upper portion.

Remember when making changes that you will need to check your pedal stops to make sure you are setting them for the string that has to make the longest pull to get to its proper pitch. I think there is a reference to this in the back of the Winnie Winston book.

John Gretzinger
Member
Northridge, CA
posted 19 May 2000 12:10 PM
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OK - things are begining to make a little more sense. Back to what I thought the pedals were called originally. So the pedal in question is the RKL.
Is it an accepted "standard" to have this lever raise the 1st and lower the 6th? What does most tab expect and when attempting to learn how others play what should be there for the beginner?

If I want the change on the 7th string, then it looks like I have to move the lever and changer rod over from the 6th to the 7th (I've looked and it is not too scary - yet).

Thanks again,

John

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MSA D-10
'63 Gibson Hummingbird
16/15c Hammered Dulcimer


[This message was edited by John Gretzinger on 19 May 2000 at 12:29 PM.]

C Dixon
Member
Duluth, GA USA
posted 19 May 2000 12:21 PM
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Yes John,
It has been a standard set-up to have RKL raise the first string a half tone and lower the 6th string a whole tone. Buddy Emmons came up with the 6th sring whole tone lower.

It is used by itself (stings 4, 5 and 6) for a pretty "suspended" chord. Or with the E lever (lowering the E's) or splits with the B pedal to get that E minor or A7th voicings with A and B. It is my MOST used knee lever, because of the split.

Some players are opting to raise that 1st string a whole tone instead of a half tone to emulate the oft' used lick by PF on many many recordings. Also, some have recently added raising the 2nd string a half tone to this knee lever for the same reason.

Caution, may make it a bit stiff though.

take care,

carl

Mark Herrick
Member
New York, New York
posted 19 May 2000 12:34 PM
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Here is some info I got a while back from Bobbe Seymour’s shop. It is an excerpt from a pamphlet titled “Methodology and Practice in Pedal Steel Guitar - A Guide to Practical Understanding and Repair” by Joe Puccio, Sr. (I have no idea who this is, and I hope I don’t get sued for posting this without permission!)
What String Moves The Farthest On Each Pedal?:

To adjust your pedal travels you must know what string you are adjusting for. The following chart will give you a hint. (The notes in parentheses.)


E9:1----------------------------------(G)2--------------------------------------D/(C#)3---------(A)4--------------(F#)----(F)--(Eb)5----(C#)-------C#6----------A------------------- -----F#7-----------------------------------G8-----------------------F----Eb9-----------------------------------------C#10----C# C6:1---------G#2--------------F3-----------------(D)----------------B4---(B)------------B-----------------------Bb5--------(F#)6-------------(Eb)7----------------------C#8----B9--- ------F#-----------E10--------D-----------(A)

Adjusting String Travel:

Each pedal/knee is adjusted at the factories to do the necessary raise or lower. The string moving the furthest is the one the pedal/knee stop is adjusted for. Example - your 3rd string G# to A moves a greater distance than the 6th string G# to A so the 3rd string is the one the pedal stop is adjusted for.

Many times factories will set the stops so the sharp or flatted note will just make it. Consequently a problem arises as wear creeps into the system. There is not room to make the raise/lower, and if there is, the changer can’t come back to pitch/open note. There has to be rod pre-play slack in every system built so far, no matter how slight.

Some guitars have components more prone to wear quickly than others. The brass swivels Sho-Bud used in the mid-seventies on their bellcranks wore quicker than any part we’ve seen so far. The brass pull-pins MSA had is another example. To correct either, replace the Sho-Bud swivel with the Emmons type if no other spares are handy. Remove the pull-pin and reverse it.

So, hope this helps someone. It helped me when I re-adjusted my Marrs S10, with no ill effects.

[This message was edited by Mark Herrick on 19 May 2000 at 12:38 PM.]

[This message was edited by Mark Herrick on 19 May 2000 at 12:50 PM.]

Jon Light
Member
Brooklyn, NY
posted 19 May 2000 12:56 PM
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That's some worthwhile info, Mark. Although I know this stuff, it's a good refresher to see it laid out like that.
John--I'll second Carl's opinion of the 6th string lower. It is as standard a move for me as any other chord inversion postition and I would not be without it. There is a particularly nice contrary motion lick there that I like--


D G1--------------------------|--------2--------------------------|--------3--------------------------|---3----4--------------------5-----|--------5------5A----6A------------|---3--- -6------5B----6B+L----5B+L--|--------7--------------------------|--------8--------------------------|-------- 1 2 3 4 1
Just my preference.


[This message was edited by Jon Light on 19 May 2000 at 12:58 PM.]

David Mullis
Member
Charlotte, NC USA
posted 19 May 2000 01:46 PM
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Okay, dumb question. I never found a use for raising the 7th string a half tone, so I decided to go with the 6th string lower. Am I missing anything by not raising 7?
Thanks
David

C Dixon
Member
Duluth, GA USA
posted 19 May 2000 02:27 PM
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Yes David there is a good use for raising the 7th string a half tone, if you have a knee lever to spare.
And that is A and B down, engage the knee lever to take an A6th chord to an A7th chord. This is a natural musical progression in a lot of tunes. True it can be gotten at other places, but sure is nice to have if it right there, if you have A and B already engaged.

Having the 6th string lower and splitting with B and A down gives that same A7th. However minus the root. Using the 7th string raise brings the root in.

As we become more cultured in the musical sphere, it is always good to have more than one trick in your musical bag! Also, it makes for more variety in your playing.

God bless,

carl

Richard Sinkler
Member
Fremont, California
posted 19 May 2000 03:34 PM
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Also, it looks cool when you have your legs tied up like a pretzel try to hit all them pedals and knee levers. Babes love it!!
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Carter D10 8p/10k
Richard Sinkler BS, www.sinkler.com


Jon Light
Member
Brooklyn, NY
posted 19 May 2000 03:41 PM
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I've got a move that goes from LKL & RKR to LKR & RKL. Looks like I'm trying to fly, in a very odd sort of way. Or like I've got a sudden urgent need for the porto-san.
No babes to report, so far.