The Steel Guitar Forum

Hi members,

Do any of you utilise the 6th diminished scale in either single note or chord form on the E9 over country harmony progressions?
I understand players are utilising diminished chords in their playing, however incorporating them with a major or minor 6 chord is something I have been working on with my guitar playing and wondering if anyone has put effort into harmonising this major/minor bebop scale for steel.
My thought process is it may blend diminished chords more naturally into my playing on pedal steel and create a more open approach to playing over chord changes.
Barry Harris who used to teach this scale I have heard states he does not think in modes and chord changes, so I am on this journey to discover more.

Regards,

Dan

I've also looked at the Barry Harris approach and it's an interesting idea. For background of those reading, the scale is a diatonic scale with a b6. The idea being that then the diatonic 7th chords of this 8 note scale are really just two chords: the tonic and its 3 inversions, and a diminished chord and its 3 inversions. There are lots of explanation videos on YouTube.

I have found that my own playing has developed to include the b6. I was happy to hear Barry Harris give a framework that justifies it, but originally I noticed it in pop music where it is used sparingly. That IV major to iv minor switch is the movement from the 6th scale degree to the b6 as the 3rd of the 4 chord. The major 3 chord is another common example ("That's Life").

I find the Barry Harris approach to just have too much of the diminished sound for my taste. I don't want half the chords to be diminished, I just want to use the b6 in other chords most of the time. Granted you can just spend a moment in any scale. I definitely think in modes and chord changes though, so this scale may not be for me.

I do find the harmonizations of the Barry Harris scale to be very pretty, and they include lots of motion. I am not aware of any work done on harmonizing it for the PSG. I would think it should be possible as a 2 line harmonization in lots of ways at least.

Thanks Justin for your info mate.

After listening to the video below towards the end using this scale as a substitute for the major scale, I couldn’t get out of my head how it would sound on PSG.
https://youtu.be/g9t7kKeme6U

It’s played in a way to my ears where I hear less diminished work then playing the diminished as a seperate entity if that makes sense.
I think the borrowing of notes from either the major
6 or diminished is the secret here.

Thanks again.

Hey no problem I love conversations like this, thanks for starting the thread!

That's a great video you sent. For me the trouble is that overall I actually prefer the version he plays before he switches to the diminished scale. That said I can certainly see why someone would like it, and there are moments in it that I do think are neat.

I do think that basically the scale spreads the diminished flavor over everything a little bit, rather than having the diminished chord be a separate, more noticeably different event.

As for how to implement it on PSG you could straight transcribe your favorite parts from that video, because he gives you the notes he is playing.

Alternately, since the whole thing is about movement, you can just start trying to sneak in a flat 6 as an extension on a chord which precedes a chord using the 6 as a chord tone.

Here's a clip I made to show this idea:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Su6F2IiHHuM

On E9, I start with a C chord, and raise the 5th, G, to the flat 6 Ab by half-pressing the A pedal. Then I full press to get the C6 chord, and then C7 using the 9th string. Then it's up to F and back using the AB pedals down. Finally I slide from the 5th string G up to the flat 6 chord: Ab major on 1,2,5, and then slide the whole thing down to 1,2,5 for the G chord. For the harp chord at the end I slide up one fret, raise the Es with a knee lever, and use pretty much every string except 9. Then I resolve down.

Again you can pretty much sneak in that flat 6 note as an addition on any chord which precedes a chord using the 6 or 5 scale note to get a chromatic motion like this. That way you have a chord with the flat 6 in it followed by a diatonic chord including a note only a half step away. This resolves the tension produced by the flat 6.

I also get away with the Ab major chord = Ab C Eb in a different way. Not only is Ab not in the key, neither is the Eb! However the parallel motion and the half step resolve for all notes in the chord sells it. I think the presence of the C is also important for making it sound like the whole thing is OK.

I really love using the 6th diminished harmony system, though it does have to be used judiciously in music outside swing or jazz. It lays out beautifully and intuitively on the C6 Neck, but is a little trickier on the E neck. I've found using the F lever for the diminished chords in between the major 6/9 chords is the best bet.

Hi Benjamin,

Thanks for your message. Yeah that b6 note is a great off beat sound.
Do you know of more than 1-2 ways to play a M6 chord on E9?
I will put the effort into this, but any prior help will be appreciated.

Regards,

Dan

Hi Justin,

Thank mate, I read your reply after Benjamin’s.
I will delve into this one over the coming days. Yeah I only have a S10 so I am limited a bit but am keen to transfer what I can from jazz theory to this neck and see what I can create.
I just find the common harmonised scales in 3rds and 6ths need more flavour when playing harmony lines and the major bebop scale may just be the link to playing melody and harmony in a fluid way on this instrument if and when using levers and pedals.

Will let you know if I discover something when I sit behind the steel in a few days time again.

Regards,

Dan

They don’t need to strictly be Ma6 chords. Ma7, Ma9, or Ma6/9 chords work just as well. In the key of G, obviously B pedal on 3rd fret for a Ma6 chord, B+C pedals on fret 5 for a Ma9 chord, E lever on fret 8 for a Ma6 chord.

On the C6 neck, the 6th diminished system is pretty linear up and down the neck, whereas on the E neck you need to hop around a bit with a lot of bar movement.

Thanks again Benjamin.

I didn’t think it needed to be too strict when it came to the M6 voicings.
Yeah I am not too familiar with C6 but I figured that might be the case.

I see you’re from Australia also. Let me know if you do any gigs around northern NSW and Brisbane anytime.

Regards,

Dan
0449 846 896

E9th - fret 7 strings 6,7,8,10 is E6 with A & B pedals.[E,C#,B,G#]
fret 7 again strings 6,8,9,10 with F lever [string 8 raised half tone] gives F# dim.[D#,C,A,F#] Note these notes repeat every 3 frets.These are the 8 notes for E6 dim scale.

Though I don't understand the theory at the speed it goes by, I sure understand how cool that b6 sounds and pretty sure I've been using it some on C6th. Diminished chords are tremendous connector/transition chords in general so I'll be looking for more of these b6 ones.

Thanks for all the responses I'm really enjoying this!

I think far less about finding full chords and far more about the intervals that give the chords their sound. So rather than looking for a place where I can play a full EM6 chord, for example, I look for a place where I can play the M6 interval E,C#. This interval allows me to imply the chord, without having to play all of it.

I do this mostly because I want to fit the M6 chord in a progression where I'm sliding around on the same strings for at least a few changes. It's much easier to do this when you don't have to have 4+ chord notes ringing at once!

I find that this approach really opens up any tuning, because rather than feeling limited by how few places there are to play certain large chords, I can focus on a kind of choir-like arrangement process where chords are the result of constantly ringing strings tracing out separate lines which cooperate to imply chords. Then the copedent is about which intervals are available. It becomes a toolbox of chord implication.

This approach is also very demanding on the theory side, as the less notes you play, the more you need to understand about how chord implication works to maintain a sense of forward motion and resolution. But if you do get the hang of it then you will feel much less constrained by the tuning because the intervals for implication are everywhere, but the full chords may not be.

I also get away with the Ab major chord = Ab C Eb in a different way. Not only is Ab not in the key, neither is the Eb!

Ab is the tritone of D. An Ab7 chord can be substituted for D7, with the shared chord tones F# (or Gb) and C.

That Ab chord you play at the end of your clip would sound cool if you played it as a 4-note Ab7 or a 5-note Ab9 by including string 9 (F#, the 3rd of D7) and string 7 (Bb, the #5 in an altered D7) and resolved it by sliding up to fret 5 and hit your AB pedals for a nice Gmaj7 chord.

All this is directly related to the b6 addition to the major scale.

I like what was said about implying extended/altered chords by playing only two notes. I think great players do that all the time.

Fred Treece wrote:

I also get away with the Ab major chord = Ab C Eb in a different way. Not only is Ab not in the key, neither is the Eb!

Ab is the tritone of D. An A7 chord can be substituted for D7, with the shared chord tones F# (or Gb) and C.

That Ab chord you play at the end of your clip would sound cool if you played it as a 4-note A7 or a 5-note A9 by including string 9 (F#, the 3rd of D7) and string 7 (Bb, the #5 in an altered D7) and resolved it by sliding up to fret 5 and hit your AB pedals for a nice Gmaj7 chord.

All this is directly related to the b6 addition to the major scale.

I like what was said about implying extended/altered chords by playing only two notes. I think great players do that all the time.

Very well said! Thank you for the feedback I appreciate it.

And I agree, it was the arrangements of players like Lloyd Green and Buddy Emmons which started me thinking about intervals and implication, because wow do they get a lot out of a little. Buddy Emmons' arrangement of Shenandoah pretty much changed how I play pedal steel.

Following along! This is very interesting, although beyond my current comprehension level without going line by line. I'm also very interested in getting better at thinking in dyad intervals rather than "chord positions".

Actually it wasn’t very well said at all, Justin. I had to go back and change all those A7’s to Ab7.

yes absolutely the 6th dim harmonized scale opens things up tremendously for comping and melodic stuff.

In tunes where there is one chord for several bars, the 6th dim approach allows for more motion.. For example in the jazz standard "I'll Remember April" where you have G maj for 4 bars and then G min for the next 4 bars, it potentially allows the chord voicings to have melodic direction..

The C6 tuning lines up so seamlessly with the 6th dim scale you'd think Barry Harris had a hand in designing the pedal changes..
The E neck doesn't lend itself nearly so intuitively to that kind of harmonization but its there if you look for it.
In key of C/Am for instance on E9 you can get that kind of motion by alternating between the A pedal and the F lever in 8th and 9th pos respectively and moving up and down through grips...

Even in straight ahead musical contexts it works well for comping and it's also a great tool for developing chord melody arrangements.

Andrew Goulet wrote:Following along! This is very interesting, although beyond my current comprehension level without going line by line. I'm also very interested in getting better at thinking in dyad intervals rather than "chord positions".

I very highly recommend learning the circle of thirds. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUUeXxT8u2A is a great video on it. One mneumonic and you'll know the notes of every chord in the key, all the way up to full 7 note diatonic 13th chords! Once you know that, its much easier to narrow down what a dyad you play is implying.

For example if you're in the key of C and you play E and G notes as a dyad you know that:

Am7 is A C E G
Cmaj7 is C E G B
Em7 is E G B D

And these become top contenders for the chords you are implying. Of course if you are implying a melody that isn't the 3rd, 5th, or 7th, you have a little more work to do because the circle of thirds doesn't immediately tell you what a 6th is, for example.

Anyway there is always more to learn but I find this to be an incredibly useful baseline.

Fred Treece wrote:Actually it wasn’t very well said at all, Justin. I had to go back and change all those A7’s to Ab7.

Ah woops I didn't even notice. I knew what you meant

And Andrew Frost: Good to hear! I'm just now getting into C6 and it certainly seems more straightforward to apply these types of concepts on it.

My above post was not meant to imply use of block chords only.It was to show one of the positions of the two 4 note chord positions for the E6 dim scale.You could then focus on single lines, permutations and arpeggios for E and B7b9.

Ian Kerr wrote:My above post was not meant to imply use of block chords only. It was to show one of the positions of the two 4 note chord positions for the E6 dim scale. You could then focus on single lines, permutations and arpeggios for E and B7b9.

Absolutely I agree. That's how I took it. I definitely prefer memorizing full chord positions over memorizing scales. In my experience it makes it far easier for me to play something musical.

Thanks Justin and members for your inputs here with this thread.
I will sit down with the steel in the next few weeks and see what I discover utilising all your great knowledge.
I feel the masters of the instrument were and still are thinking differently than diatonic chords ,3rds and 6th harmonised scales and dominant chord voicings for example. That’s what I hear particularly in chord melody/instrumental arrangements anyhow.
Let’s see how the theory all plays out in practice on our beautiful instrument.
Regards,
Dan

I think we need to differentiate between the Diminished chord which has a 6th degree but still is called Dim7th as the 7th degree is double-flattened (aka. “diminished” from the natural Maj7th to minor7th (aka. b7th) and then diminished to dim7th (6th).

Barry Harris’ Major6th-Dim approach is a totally different concept and subject which I don’t think will “sit well” in Country Music except Western Swing.

Dim7th “chords” and “scales” (which are one and the same, unless one adds chromatisms (half-steps in between the infinite stack of minor thirds a Dim is formed with)) and are an inherrent part of traditional steel guitar playing from it’s earliest days on… in Country music as well as Hawaiian and Swing, since we all tend to slide up into chord and two note harmonies and even single notes from one fret below the target… effectively often implying a “Diminished” sound.
Lets remeber that in a Diminished ALL chord tones except the root are flattened a semi-tone (half-step). Sure, a Dim can also really be a rootless Dom7th,b9th… where the 3rd, 5th and b7th are matching those of the implied Dom chord but the root not is raised a half-step to “I #”… known as “b9th”.

Dim, just like their first decedents the Dom chords (as “Father” Barry Harris would out it) are functional chords which point to a change (resolving)… in Western music often an fourth up. Thus they serve often as tension and thus passing chords and thus againg they would be found -although often un-written- in Country music to.

Blues going into quick-change Jazz-Blues uses the Dim a LOT, even written progression in the 5th bar building up from the IV back to the I (going IV, #IVdim7) which really can be played as a IV7tg with a sharp root (“7th,b9th”).
Blues being the basis to traditional Country music, would suggest that the same could be played in Country too.

And yes, C6th specifically, is nearly a diminished tuning as the sum of all adjacent strings intervals average out closer to a minor 3rd than anything else. Playing single note half-whole diminished runs is spectacularly natural to that tuning even witout the need of even touching a pedal or lever. And it’s basic pedal system indeed plays right into Barry Harris’s theory of his Maj6th,Dim harmonic approach.

Is that confusing things further enough?… JD.

What’s cool about the 8-note Harris scale is that it makes it legal to play IIm7b5-V7b9-Im7 in the relative minor key within the scale (Am in the C6/dim scale, for example). In “normal” 7-note minor keys, there is gonna be a non-diatonic note in there somewhere.

What’s cool about the 8-note Harris scale is that it makes it legal to play IIm7b5-V7b9-Im7 in the relative minor key within the scale (Am in the C6/dim scale, for example). In “normal” 7-note minor keys, there is gonna be a non-diatonic note in there somewhere.

Yes, good point. And in that particular example (B half dim / E7 / Am7) there's an inside voice descending chromatically from A to G natural which outlines the altered section of the scale, with the added note, quite elegantly.