The Steel Guitar Forum

Posted: **8 Jun 2023 8:56 am**

Ok,

Long long ago...fading off....I started on a Sho-Bud Maverick which was an Emmons setup. I got my present Carter D10 several years ago and it's a Day setup. Which flopped only the A and C pedals so..I adjusted to it.

Fast forward a few years and...my ankle does not roll line it used to. I am ever so slightly moving the LKL and it's ugly when I try to roll off the C pedal and hold B down.

Thinking of going back to ABC rather than CBA as it seems that roll dies not move LKR...

How difficult to change that setup on a Carter? Never messed with a change tis big before.

Posted: **8 Jun 2023 2:52 pm**

It's super easy to change from Day to Emmons on a Carter, only requires a little time and patience, a 3/16" tuning wrench and an allen wrench for the bell cranks. It just involves removing and relocating the affected pull rods and associated bell cranks to re-assign them using the same bell crank and changer holes for each change. It often requires swapping one or both of your E raises or lowers too if they're on the left knee levers, but it's all the same process. Just list or map in which hole each pull to be changed is currently located in the changer and bell cranks and match those assignments for the new pedal and lever locations. It's a good idea to take plenty of close up pics for reference too.

Posted: **9 Jun 2023 12:16 am**

The screws that secure the bell crank to the cross shaft is actually a T10 torx screw. They can be really tight and the torx head and/or wrench strips easily. I use a T-handle torx wrench, insert it into the screw head and lightly tap the torx wrench handle with a hammer. That usually loosens them up.

Posted: **9 Jun 2023 8:24 am**

I'm not sure that Torx screws were ever intended to be removed once they're installed. They go in much better than they come out.

Posted: **9 Jun 2023 8:47 am**

I'm not sure if i can say this on here but a Wheeler smithing screw driver set has a really good T-10 in the kit and works great on these Carters
thanks
wayne

Posted: **9 Jun 2023 8:54 am**

Dave Alden wrote: I am ever so slightly moving the LKL...

As a first step, have you tried adjusting the tiny screw on the knee lever that sets the angle that it hangs?

Posted: **9 Jun 2023 10:08 am**

Ian Rae wrote:I'm not sure that Torx screws were ever intended to be removed once they're installed. They go in much better than they come out.

I think I might agree with you.

Posted: **10 Jun 2023 3:38 pm**

Tucker Jackson wrote:
Dave Alden wrote: I am ever so slightly moving the LKL...
As a first step, have you tried adjusting the tiny screw on the knee lever that sets the angle that it hangs?

You know, I completely forgot those are there. I will check that and report back.

Might still like ABC as opposed to the opposite...but I am guessing folks that play way better than I can live with either. Or is it really a big deal for folks?

Posted: **11 Jun 2023 10:00 am**

I think it's a big deal for almost everyone and it's strictly a personal ergonomic decision. If your ankle turns better one way than the other, so be it. That drives the decision.

But you don't want to dive in and switch the pedals around unless you're pretty sure. One way to test drive a pedal swap is to temporarily convert your C-pedal into an A-pedal.

Just unscrew the C-pedal's hex nut used to tune the 4th-string raise until it's not raising that string at all. Now, that pedal will be a fake A-pedal, only raising string 5 (well, it's actually just half of an A-pedal, because there's no accompanying raise on the 10th).

Try using that along with the B-pedal to see how the rocking works for you ankle. To make it a fair test, you may have to adjust the height of your temporary fake A-pedal to maximize comfort in rocking on and off each of the two pedals while holding down the other.

Another consideration: if you do reverse the order of your pedals and make it Emmons, you're probably going to need to swap two knee levers too. IF your E-string-raise lever is currently on one of the left knee levers, you will probably want it on the knee closest to the A-pedal (which would be LKL). You want it there so you can easily use those two together (i.e., A+F). Otherwise, if you have it on LKR, it's a pretty brutal gymnastic move trying to use it along with the A-pedal.

So... for many guitars, going from Day to Emmons (or vice versa) means more than just doing a pedal swap. It often means a knee lever swap too -- depending on where the E-string-raise lever is currently sitting. Meanwhile, if the E-raise is currently over on one of the right knee levers, you probably don't need to make any changes to knee levers.

Posted: **12 Jun 2023 4:25 am**

Tucker Jackson wrote:I think it's a big deal for almost everyone and it's strictly a personal ergonomic decision. If your ankle turns better one way than the other, so be it. That drives the decision.

But you don't want to dive in and switch the pedals around unless you're pretty sure. One way to test drive a pedal swap is to temporarily convert your C-pedal into an A-pedal.

Just unscrew the C-pedal's hex nut used to tune the 4th-string raise until it's not raising that string at all. Now, that pedal will be a fake A-pedal, only raising string 5 (well, it's actually just half of an A-pedal, because there's no accompanying raise on the 10th).

Try using that along with the B-pedal to see how the rocking works for you ankle. To make it a fair test, you may have to adjust the height of your temporary fake A-pedal to maximize comfort in rocking on and off each of the two pedals while holding down the other.

Another consideration: if you do reverse the order of your pedals and make it Emmons, you're probably going to need to swap two knee levers too. IF your E-string-raise lever is currently on one of the left knee levers, you will probably want it on the knee closest to the A-pedal (which would be LKL). You want it there so you can easily use those two together (i.e., A+F). Otherwise, if you have it on LKR, it's a pretty brutal gymnastic move trying to use it along with the A-pedal.

So... for many guitars, going from Day to Emmons (or vice versa) means more than just doing a pedal swap. It often means a knee lever swap too -- depending on where the E-string-raise lever is currently sitting. Meanwhile, if the E-raise is currently over on one of the right knee levers, you probably don't need to make any changes to knee levers.

Thank you for that advice. I learned on a Sho-Bud maverick so many years ago. Then I switched to a regular guitar for many years. I bought my present Carter in the early 2000s and just got used to the day setup. Again it got relegated to the case as life happened and I only recently got back at it.

But in the meantime I aged. Ankle seems to want to roll AB, better than BC as I can roll off the B to C only or roll A to be and back fine, so rolling to the right does not cause so much moving. It did not used to be this way, but my knee moves a great deal rolling left.

I have not had a chance to adjust anything yet.

Has anyone else noted reduced ankle roll as they age. And if so? Perhaps the adjustment won't be enough and I will need to swap all of that.?

Posted: **16 Jun 2023 10:44 am**

Ok y'all,

So I moved the lever adjustment a bit...and when I pick up my heel I can roll just fine. Guessing I somehow got my muscle memory a bit confused wanting to plant the heel.

Is it proper form to lift the heel off the floor to facilitate rolling from C to B and then off B..

Posted: **16 Jun 2023 6:08 pm**

Dave, whatever you can do best is by definition legal in all 50 states.

If you play abroad... somebody may flag you on something, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

Posted: **17 Jun 2023 2:53 am**

Tucker Jackson wrote:Dave, whatever you can do best is by definition legal in all 50 states.

If you play abroad... somebody may flag you on something, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

Ok...then lifting seems to be working so off to the races. I will be playing at the church soon, got a solo, so that detune hitting LKL was not working.

Thanks

Posted: **17 Jun 2023 9:27 am**

I sometimes lift my heel when playing.

Posted: **17 Jun 2023 10:56 am**

I confess that I avoid using the C pedal (my P1 - I play 'Day') in tandem with the B pedal simply because it involves lifting my foot and moving across to 1 and 2.

Lately, though, I've been endeavouring to assimilate it into my playing and just practicing that move.

As far as whether or not it's correct to lift your heel, many years ago I came to the conclusion that it was okay to do what I needed to do in order to play what was in my head. Then I started to become a bit too conscious that this-or-that 'wasn't good form' and that I should retrain myself in certain arears.

Now? I'm back doing what is comfortable. I can play okay with any number of so-called 'flaws'; I'm not going to allow any of that to inhibit my music.

(I'm now considering moving my CBA pedals one space to the right, and putting my 9,6,3-lower at #1; that might bring 'B&C' within easier reach.)

Posted: **17 Jun 2023 7:13 pm**

I wonder if Carter steels when being assembled, Had some sort of impact tool used on those Torque Head screws.
If an impact tool was used to put them in, That hammering/vibrating effect really stressed them.

The best way to loosen them it to use an impact tool to loosen them and then retighten them with a hand powered tools.

When impact wrenches first put in use, They started using them in the the tire business. They tightened lugs so tight. The tools supplied in a vehicle, The driver could not loosen the lug nuts, When a tire went flat. You had to use an impact wrench to loosen them.
I know at that time many wrecker services put Air Compressors and impact wrenches on their wreckers, For road service calls.

Posted: **18 Jun 2023 12:40 am**

Yep, a tow truck's the answer Dave

Posted: **18 Jun 2023 1:17 am**

Kind of off topic but maybe not. I owned and played 3 different Carter D10's, I always thought they were great guitars.

BUT Whenever I yanked out one of those TORQUE screws I replaced them with St ST Allen Head screws.

I was a nice friend of Johns ( RIP) , we spoke often and we talked about the Torque Head screws every now and then. I believe he told me he purchased them by the thousands ( pounds) . While I don't believe he ever said the words I do think he thought they were a weak spot in manufacturing.

The last Carter D10 I owned which was a 2004, 9+8 , ( great guitar) one day I put it on the bench and changed all of the TORQUE HEAD screws to St St Allen Head. And yes, some of them were a war to remove but I won the war. I'm a tinkerer, the one thing I could never get past on the Carters was the tiny brass dog bones used to hook the rods in the bell cranks. Other than that they are excellent guitar's , very well made.

Peace !

Posted: **19 Jun 2023 7:33 am**

Roger Rettig wrote:I confess that I avoid using the C pedal (my P1 - I play 'Day') in tandem with the B pedal simply because it involves lifting my foot and moving across to 1 and 2....

Yep, oddly I guess we are all built a little different and guitars are, generally not so much different entirely. Rolling off pedal 1 to 2 only then off 2 and back is no problem. But my knee goes an inch over on 2 and three. Seeing as several folks have replied that it's ok to lift...lifting I shall do. Seems some muscle memory did come back when I realized it. Perhaps I was doing that 8 years ago and forgot.

I am learning "what a friend we have in Jesus" and that change is required. The awful detune from bumping the lever was not a pleasure to hear...got through it a couple of times now with a lift of the heel.

Posted: **19 Jun 2023 8:50 am**

Tony Prior wrote:.....I'm a tinkerer, the one thing I could never get past on the Carters was the tiny brass dog bones used to hook the rods in the bell cranks....

Ditto. That's the worst thing about working on them, maybe as bad as the screws.

When you try to insert one of those stupid barbells, the middle part drops down in the bell crank and you have to have a way to get down in there and pick it up for it to slide into the other half.

Has anybody found a good way to deal with this, or am I the only one who has a problem with them?

Otherwise, Carters are relatively straight forward easy to change set ups.

On my buddy's Carter that I'm playing, the screws are not much of a problem. I bought a screwdriver type handled Torx tool that works well. But yeah, you need to get it broken loose the first time or it's easy to strip out the head.

Posted: **19 Jun 2023 10:10 am**

I play Day set up. When setting guitar up I raise the C pedal higher than the B pedal. When my foot is on the B-C combo, My foot is at an angle not a complete move and pedals straight down. Just pivot on my heel, I have B-C, Pivot back to A-B pedals.

If you ever have to play the song SOMEDAY SOON, May want B-C pedal combo. In G chord. The melody needs both Em and Bm.
If you bar at 3rd fret G, Em A pedal, The Bm is B-C pedal at 5th fret.
G at 10th fret A-B pedals down. Bm A pedal, Em 10th fret with B-C pedals.

Posted: **20 Jun 2023 9:16 am**

Lol, after playing Day, don’t know why anyone would want to change to Emmons setup. Pedal rocks are so much easier and makes much more sense. I’ve noticed that most that play Emmons when pumping A pedal actually move their whole foot just to A pedal, but no mater, whatever works for you.

I have changed many Carters set ups and found no trouble loosening the bell crank screws are Allen’s or what ever they are. Just make sure your wrench is correct size and should be easy. I have more trouble with those dog bones.

Posted: **20 Jun 2023 10:30 am**

Bobby:

I've run out of adjustment on my pedal-length. The Emmons' rods are threaded only so far and that grommet (??) into which the ball is inserted will only go so far 'up'.

I know it would be possible to shorten the rods but, I fear, that's a project just beyond my capabilities.

I play with the length of the rods constantly. Sometimes the B pedal seems too low, sometimes I can't quite depress the A pedal (#3) sufficiently to reach the C#.

Having said that, I dread to think how it would feel to play 'Emmons'. Sometimes, in an idle moment, I will play the C and B pedals (1 + 2) as if they're A + B (avoiding the 4th string) just to see what it's like. I don't know how anyone manages it but hundreds seem to do it very well. It takes a really conscious effort for me to roll off my first pedal while keeping a straight left leg and the B depressed.

'Day' rules!

Posted: **21 Jun 2023 5:11 am**

[quo

Having said that, I dread to think how it would feel to play 'Emmons'. Sometimes, in an idle moment, I will play the C and B pedals (1 + 2) as if they're A + B (avoiding the 4th string) just to see what it's like. I don't know how anyone manages it but hundreds seem to do it very well. It takes a really conscious effort for me to roll off my first pedal while keeping a straight left leg and the B depressed.

'Day' rules!

[/quote]

I learned on a old maverick, the brown ones not the earlier ones. Pretty sure they were all Emmons...when I got this one it was Day. It did not take much using Winnie Winston's book to get back to where I left off. I just had to mentally transcribe the tabs to fit the setup. I think I could play either...if I tried. But outside of this odd little incident I think I do prefer the Day setup. I can roll AB either way...gotta lift for BC..but that maybe age, and making sure the seat is close enough to the guitar.

Posted: **28 Jun 2023 1:39 pm**

I seen my suggestion about air impact wrench use, Proved again Monday night. My neighbor Rick and I was fighting a nut to remove a pulley from his 13 year old lawn mower.

Neighbor Rick borrowed long handled Rachet Wrench, We got the pulley locked solid, Gave it a shot of Kano Kroil, Pecked it with a hammer, And could not get the nut loose, Even with white knuckles and some No No words.

When neighbor Gary came from work, We borrowed his Air Impact Wrench, I loaded my air compressor to 125 lb., Put the Impact Wrench and socket on the problem nut. Pulled the trigger. BUDDDDDA----Buzz and the problem nut was OFF the shaft, Now waiting on new parts to arrive.

The Steel Guitar Forum

How to change over from Day to Emmons setup on a Carter D10

How to change over from Day to Emmons setup on a Carter D10

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