The Steel Guitar Forum

For a boring variety of reasons, I let go of my 10-string, 3x5 PSGs some time ago...I'm a dobro/lap player/gigger now...but I miss it...now thinking of a 6-string 2x2 as a possible extra instrument to gig with...

-There's a lot of these out there (Growlers seem popular now?)...

-Who buys them? Is it mostly people put off by the difficulty of learning a full-size one (I won't have that problem)?

- Are they a good idea? Do they work well, with enough flexibility to be useful? (e.g., I'd miss the "C-pedal stab" and the descending run on the re-entrant strings...)

-Do they end up in a closet or get played a lot?

-What about the E9 vs. Dobro (GBDGBD) versions?

-Any other comments? All thoughts welcomed!
(and...does anyone have one for sale, if I end up going that way?)

If you are serious about being a pedal steel guitar player, I would not invest in a 6 string guitar. After a while you would realize it's limitations.
Erv

I had a Fessenden 6 shooter as my first psg. I knew in a week that it wouldn't cut it, but was enough to realize I was going to give it a go. Then I went through the Maverick mistake, finally ending up on a Mullen RP SD10. I'd look for a good starter 10 string E9 with 3 and 3 as a minimum

I did the full-size thing and let it go. Not interested in it now. want to know WHY the 6-string didn't cut it, not just that it didn't do it for you.

I think it’s a pretty cool idea. A 6-string G or C6 electric dobro with AB pedals and a couple levers can go pretty far in pop and country rock music, especially with a Charlie capo so you can get all the open string stuff in weird keys. You know from your own experience that there is a LOT you won’t be able to do that is standard fare on a 10-string, but working with less is just an opportunity to get creative with what you have.

Fred Treece wrote:...but working with less is just an opportunity to get creative with what you have.

Agreed. I recently went from an 8 x 6 D-10 to a 3 x 1 GS-10 and the most noticible thing I miss is those additional 40 pounds.

Fred -
good points. I know that switching to GBDGBD as my only current tuning has made it easier to get my mind about where all the notes are, and a bit more of a challenge to play fancy stuff...but sure, I can play a Dm7b5 now if I need to on it...I don't mind that challenge...
I might still prefer the E9 tuning for a PSG...Keep the F#, or not? without it it isn't any different than the dobro intervals...
I wasn't thinking of a dobro with pedals, though, but a real pedal steel....no resonator.

When I first started dabbling in pedal steel, I got a Fessenden 6 shooter which encouraged me to buy a Sho~Bud 3x5 which I love.

However, I held on to the 6 shooter (tuned to the middle 6 strings of a 10 string E9) and still use it from time to time. I sometimes do gigs where it would be great to have a pedal steel sound on a few songs but it isn't really worth bringing and setting up the Sho~Bud. I could bring a lap steel instead and sometimes do that (let's be honest, most non-steel players can't tell the difference anyway) but sometimes I bring the 6 shooter. It takes up far less space on stage than the Sho~Bud and the whole thing fits into the gig bag that I use to carry just the pedal board and legs.

I've fitted a knee lever to raise the Es to F (that's about as far as I can go with mods on the very basic changer). Of course, I can't play nearly as much stuff as I could on the 10 stringer but for a few songs, it really gives "that" sound and there is still a fair bit you can do with it. None of these gigs are with full on traditional country bands and I'd say most people (both in the band and the audience) aren't used to seeing a PSG of any kind so it has the novelty/wow factor.

I've also used it with a cajun band I play with from time to time (I used to use lap steel and a regular electric) and it's perfect and a most of the cajun tunes are gread for simple licks, mashing the A and B pedals.

I've always liked the idea of having less of everything on a pedal steel. I have so much fun playing my 8 string Fender with 3 pedals at home.

My 2¢ worth on the subject....I played a Cougar 6 string for a while.
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtop ... highlight=
I'm still in the market for a proper 6 banger if I can find it for a reasonable price.

I'll say that the middle 6 of the standard E9th tuning is the most common that players use for these.

I'll also state that the more educated player you are, the easier to find the notes and things you want on a 6 stringer.

I believe they are marketed toward guitar players wanting to bend some strings and to entry level players who want to get started on pedal steel.

However, newbies are attracted to the pedal steel by the things they see and hear other players do. These include a lot of chromatic runs etc. using strings 1 & 2 on the 10 string....and 7th/9th chords and licks out of there with the 7th and 9th strings.

Therefore, I think the beginner feels that these licks are chords are too difficult to find on the 6 banger.

An experienced or educated player knows where to find the things they want on the 6 just because they are familiar with the tuning.

I found the 6 string a bit limiting, but capable of letting me play most things with a little forethought, but mine had 4 pedals and 4 knees.

I used a different appoach as noted in the link there. Since I was used to playing 10 stringers, it was going to take a little re-thinking and acclimation in using the BEG#BEG# or other variations of the 1,3,5 approach.

Anyone interested should check out the links and posts that our man b0b has listed here. He had some great ideas on different tunings, etc. for the 6 string pedal steel. I'll post some when I have the time to search them out.

Summary, a noob wanting to learn to play traditional E9 country stuff, I would recommend a 10 stringer with appropriate appendages.

For guitar players just wanting to bend a few strings for a pedal steel effect, yes on the 6 banger.

For experienced pedal steel players looking for a little less and realizing that it takes some rethinking, yes again.
It's sort of fun finding the notes you want on the fretboard but in different configurations. I think it's actually a good primer and a delight...sort of like learning again and that feeling of accomplishment.

Remember, there's a lot of single string work that can be done... also slants, pulls behind the bar. Put your knowledge and theory in gear and go for it.

Standard 6 string guitar players have been getting around pretty good on just 6 strings or sometimes even 5 ala Keef etc.

So, it's all there on the 6 string pedal steel, you just have to find it at different places. JMO.

From what I can gather, the 6-string pedal steels are purchased mainly by lead players; lead players who don't want to deal with the extra strings and closer string spacings of conventional steels. They're also, for the most part, not interested in the chromatics or the high whiny character of our standard E9th.

I think that the only limitations with 6 strings are mental, and those who think that their own limitations (needing 10 strings) transfer to others are going to be in for a shock one day. Never think your own shortcomings are shared by everyone else. One day, we'll probably see a 6-string pedal steeler who can play the instrument like Charles Berthoud plays bass. Then...look out!

For an idea of what Charles can do with 4 strings, go here and skip to about 1:30

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPyJHV2nZu8


Here's another great piece, really AMAZING playing!

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/p0CT1FO4qLQ

Jackson Maverick 6-string pull-release has been shipped to me....first pull-release and I haven't quite got tuning figured out, but once it is here I should be able to..

I look forward to the eventual "for sale" post, Steve.

(just kidding brother)

I already have the "for sale" email to you written and will send it directly to you when the time comes..

It seems the general sentiment here is:

"Well, if you're a good Dobro or lap-steel player, you can play just about any kind of music."

But put a pickup on it, add a couple of pedals and levers, and it's automatically transformed into something nobody can play, and it's just totally inadequate to make music with.

You guys are just too much.

I totally rejected the idea as being a lazy approach to 10 string psg. But then, as I thought about it, I realized that I prefer 6-string dobro to my 7-string, and my 6-string lap steel to my 8-string. I'm not playing Western Swing or Hawaiian. Mostly blues, and the 6-string just works great for that. Maybe it's the wider string spacing for moving the bar all around, and in part, with an 8-string C6 tuning you get more of the blues scale without moving the bar - except that moving the bar is where a lot of the character comes in - so instead you are skipping strings. But when it comes to playing some chords, well, most just aren't there beyond the major triad. But add some pedals and levers, and yes! I'd want 3x4 on the pedals, I think - standard A, B, C, plus the E raise and lower. The other two, well, I'd have to ponder that.

So, in short, I think it's a pretty good idea for a rock/blues/country instrument. A lap steel with some additional chord options, and pedal bends. I'd want a wider spacing - like a 6-string lap steel or dobro - so moving between them was easy. I can jump from my pedal steel to my other steels - but I can't do the same things on it I can do on the others. Maybe just a different mindset?

Steve, I hope to check out the Jackson sometime!

I am relatively new to the pedal steel, have two, an ancient Sierra Artist, and a NEW GFI Ultra, . The other day found my grandson turning on and messing withy ultra. I gave him a stern look and sheepishly said " I wanted to learn. I told him that was the right question. I had seen a demo on YouTube with Zane King playing a six string pedal steel, actually two different videos. So I called Jackson steel guitars spoke with one of the Jackson boys wife and got the skinny the guitars. Thought it would be great for my grandson, he is turning 8 in a few weeks. Besides thought it would be fun, and is defiantly lighter than a 10 stringer. I have had both shoulder operated on so weight is kind of a deal with me. The folks at Jackson were very nice and answered all questions about the fixer. So planning to call back on Monday and place an order. I think anything we can do to get youngsters interested in music and pedal steel is a good thing.

Rich

I don’t get mine for a few days, but played 10-string for about 6 years some time ago… thinking a lot about it, I agree with the post that says you can do pretty much anything, but maybe have to find some things in a different place.
The Jackson isn’t lighter, though- I picked it because it is solidly built, compared to the other 6 strings, which work fine, I’m sure, but would bounce around when played…I don’t know what the implications would be for sustain, either. Tried a low- end 10-string long ago, and dumped it after a day….
It is easier mentally to have fewer strings, levers and pedals to deal with, with the challenge more in how to do the more complicated stuff. That’s why I’ve been playing dobro and lap steel, with 2 stacked major triads on each…just like the Jackson….(and unlike the other 6 strings; which take the middle strings from a 10 string). I figured out how to play a Dmi7b5 on the dobro and lap, split slants, etc. but the conceptual and mechanical interface was very straightforward….
IMHO, of course….YMMV….

I sat in (on regular guitar) with a couple country-rock bands where a lead player would switch to one for specific songs .

The purpose was to play simple A/B pedal ankle rolls, use a pedal like a b-bender - but mainly just to get a pedal steel "'sound". NOT to play complicated chords, shifting between various pedals/levers while moving the bar, not for fast runs.

I know almost no music theory, being an ear player, and played in a band for 4 1/2 years where I played a D10 ZB: I moved the bar, mashed pedals, moved it again and mashed some more, threw in some fuzz or phase shifter, never used a volume pedal - and the audience often complimented me on my pedal steel..or slide...or lap steel playing...or asked "what is that thing? it sure sounds cool."

And the other band members thought I was playing normal pedal steel.

On this forum I think too many players are thinking their listeners are other pedal steel players when hardly any are! You DON'T need to impress anyone - for the most part ( in areas that aren't Nashville or other steel-centric regions - which is a tiny part of the global geography) you just need to plsy simple pedal steel without mistakes and the audience will think you're a magician.

I FINALLY gave up E9 for good 10 days ago, and sold my last SD10. I realized at age 70 - already being a multi-instrumentalist (and instrument/amp tech) that knows squat about music theory - I was just wasting my time trying to learn more E9 than the basic stuff I already knew...and I know far more on(the much more logical)8 string B6"Sneaky" copedent.

I - like other players I've seen post - have physical or other limitations and can't gig any longer (or have never played a gig and - based on being told what they MUST learn - never will.). So I jam with friends at home, play with backing tracks...

I play for my own enjoyment and don't give a damn if other steel players aren't impressed, as if I ever CAN return to gigging I'll drag out the 8-string, B6 9+2 Sneakycaster with its 9 effects built-in and NO volume pedal...

...and like I've done for 20 years or so I'll "get away with it", thank folks for the compliments, get paid and go home happy. And not ONE person asked me how I moved from a D9 chord to a G11, or what scale I used in the solo on (fill in a random song name here).

Have fun & unless you plan on being a studio cat or low-paid touring player don't take yourself so seriously. Use your ears, smile and don't take it all so seriously!

Steve - I assume you got this guitar - https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=390932

I was gonna respond on this thread earlier but you went ahead and made the decision to get that 6-string Maverick. You seem like the perfect guy to go for a guitar like this.

If I were you, I'd just leave the basic open E tuning (lo-hi) B E G# B E G# with the E=>F and E=>Eb levers on it. I'd probably change the RKL E=>F# to G#=>F#, I think that would be way more useful on a guitar like this, it opens a lot of options for me on my regular 10-string E9 or 12-string universal. You get the cool 3=>2 single-string drop, plus a very nice 5 chord with the E=>Eb lever. Yes, I know there are other ways to get the 5, but it's the smooth way it goes there that is the attraction for me. Buddy Emmons had that change, and used it to perfection.

In time, if you want to synch with your GBDGBD dobro type of tuning (with the 5 on top) and feel like seriously messing with the undercarriage to move the pedals to do what they do on the E tuning, you could. But first I would figure out if this guitar, as-is, excites you. I don't see the point in messing around with setup until you really think you're gonna dig in with the pedal steel and are hell-bent to bring it down to G. I can see a good rationale to do that, but I wouldn't start out messing with it that way.

I think you'll be shocked just how much you can do with a guitar like this if you just have an open mind. I actually thought about getting this guitar, but then I looked at my stack of steels and said, NAH.

Dave-
thanks for your input...yeah, when I played 10-string some years ago I always put the LKR+RKL G#->F# V-chord change on it...it was a real "goto"

But on the Jackson, the F#->G# is only on one of the Es (the lower one), and that actually gives a few interesting options (having both a G# and F#), instead of a G#->F#....I've been thinking about it...still get the V chord by doing LKR+RKL and playing the right strings. I'll have to play for a while and then decide...definitely a thought process about how to get the most choices without the other 4 strings...

Or maybe they just made it a raise on E instead of a lower on G# because tuning raises are more straightforward on a pull-release guitar...the only lower is E->Eb....so they say to tune it just like an all-pull and not have to tune raises and lowers totally differently....

Talk to the Jackson’s about their dual lever slideking lap steel. It is so nice to be able to take the guitar out of its case and just play. Plus anyone can play the guitar big or small.

Dave Mudgett wrote:Steve - I assume you got this guitar - https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=390932

I was gonna respond on this thread earlier but you went ahead and made the decision to get that 6-string Maverick. You seem like the perfect guy to go for a guitar like this.

I think you'll be shocked just how much you can do with a guitar like this if you just have an open mind.

I think Dave said it all right there. Many people on this forum (including me, on occasion) just dismiss things based on what they’ve heard, and sometimes, on their own experiences. But there are instances when people come along and take an instrument to an entirely different level. Buddy Emmons did this with a very simple pedal steel. Jerry Douglas did it with a Dobro. And Charles Berthoud did it with bass guitar. Should a similarly talented player decide to do it with a 6-banger PSG, music history may be changed, and a lot of players here will walk away mumbling with their myriad rationalizations of why 10 or 12 strings and a dozen pedals/levers are necessary. All the wonderful “additions” being made to conventional pedal steels seem to be driving players away, not a good thing for the future. (Are we ever going to stop changing things and just concentrate on what’s already there?) Maybe it IS time for a shakeup!? Only time will tell.

I played a Fender 1000 for about 8 years, and even toured with it. Only other pedal steelers knew I was limited,, and as Jim Sliff said, I just went on playing and doing my thing. In the end, all that matters is the player and the music. The Fender was primitive compared to my newer steels, but was I a better player with a newer, more capable guitar? In truth, sometimes I wonder. Fancy moves and big complex chords are not music, they’re just “things”.

Well, bottom line is that I'm loving the 6-string Jackson. I had the other strings for years (a succession of 10-string Williams steels), and used them, but I'm not missing them.

All the notes are there on the Jackson (my copedent has the full range of a 10-stringer). And music, real music, comes from the heart, not from the extra features. I'm a Jerry Garcia steel guy - he just played the right notes, not all the frills like Emmons and those guys had...

In some ways, there are fewer gadgets standing between me the music....tempting me to just use the riffs and moves we all learn and repeat ad infinitum.

Plus, the pull-release steel sounds heavenly. I'm not sure I'd want a 10-string pull-release, they are somewhat more complex to deal with on lowers, etc., but I've got everything I need....and the Jackson is built like a fully pro steel, solid as a rock, no compromises on construction as might be on lower-end steels....

So, I'm happy!

YMMV, of course, and I'm not disparaging folks who choose to play more sophisticated stuff on their steels....