Push/Pull differences?

Jon Irsik · Post by **Jon Irsik** » 13 Mar 2023 8:20 am

I'm going to plead a bit of ignorance here. After attending the Texas show this past weekend and hearing various push/pulls being called different names such as wrap-around, fatback, etc., being primarily an all pull player I have no idea what terms mean or the differences from model to model. Can someone point me to a prior thread (I searched but didn't find anything) or offer an explanation of the differences in these guitars and what the terms refer to? Thanks!

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 13 Mar 2023 8:33 am

There have been a few discussions. Here's one posted by Jay Ganz, Jon Light or Doug Beaumier:

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtop ... wraparound

Jon Irsik · Post by **Jon Irsik** » 13 Mar 2023 8:40 am

Perfect Jerry, thank you!

Jon Irsik · Post by **Jon Irsik** » 13 Mar 2023 10:27 am

Looking at this guitar, but I've not seen one with the bolts on the changer sitting on top. The controls appear to have been altered as well. Does this look like the guitar has been messed with?

Dave Campbell · Post by **Dave Campbell** » 13 Mar 2023 11:12 am

that's a wood necked emmons push pull with a 'bolt on' changer. most push pulls used aluminum necks that also housed the changer, hence the difference. a lot of people really like the wood neck push pulls, sonny garish being one of the more famous wood neck emmons players.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 13 Mar 2023 12:50 pm

That has a bolt on changer like I've never seen before.
It looks like it could be adjusted back and forth.
Erv

Mike Vallandigham · Post by **Mike Vallandigham** » 13 Mar 2023 1:02 pm

Those bolts are weird - but all wood neck PPs have bolt on changer arrangement.

Also looks like ALL the pedals have been shortened.

Skip Edwards · Post by **Skip Edwards** » 13 Mar 2023 1:07 pm

Yeah... odd looking changer. Got a serial number, or underneath pic?

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 13 Mar 2023 1:17 pm

Those changer pillow blocks with the axle end open......nothing that I've ever seen on an Emmons (and I'll learn something if someone says that yes, that's legit for a particular period).

Mike Vallandigham · Post by **Mike Vallandigham** » 13 Mar 2023 2:02 pm

Yeah, lookin again and comparing it to my '81 wood neck PP - those end blocks are wrong (as mentioned above) the axle/finger diameters looks wrong, and those pickups are not correct - the corners should be much more round.

I'd steer clear of that one if you're looking for originality.

Jon Irsik · Post by **Jon Irsik** » 13 Mar 2023 3:12 pm

Thanks everyone, the guitar was for sale at a Guitar Center in Florida. I called the store and confirmed it had four knee levers but that was about all I was able to learn about it. The more I looked the more I didn’t want it. The listing is gone so someone got it.

Tiny Olson · Post by **Tiny Olson** » 13 Mar 2023 4:26 pm

The earliest Emmons woodneck guitars (not sure, but I think they were #s 6, 7, 8 and 10) had a bolt-on changer that looked very much like this guitar. I don't recall ever seeing the adjustment slot for the changer bolts that this horn has but they were trying different things back in those days and I haven't seen all of those four that I mentioned. The endplates and pedals look pretty much right to me for that period too as well as the p/ups. Can't quite tell though from the photos. Fretboards look like aftermarket replacements. Sure would like to see more and closer photos. Could be a Frankensteel Emmons but,,, it could be something special and rare.

Maybe Chris Lucker, Herb Steiner and Lynn Stafford will see this and chime in.

TRAP TRULY · Post by **TRAP TRULY** » 13 Mar 2023 4:34 pm

Wonder if it’s one of early transition ‘64 Emmons wraparound wood neck guitars by looking at the changer axle...looks like modifications were made regardless.

TRAP TRULY · Post by **TRAP TRULY** » 13 Mar 2023 4:58 pm

I sent the pictures to reputable source and he confirmed that it is a early ‘64 Emmons. Jon, did you get the serial number?

Jon Irsik · Post by **Jon Irsik** » 13 Mar 2023 5:08 pm

Found an old Reverb listing and it looks like the same guitar:

https://reverb.com/item/21192486-emmons ... 1965-black

According to the listing from Mike Bourque it was a 1964 that had been converted to an all pull guitar, if it is indeed the same one. It sure looks like it, right down the pedals and bolts on the changer. The control plate is similar from what I can see. Sounds good but not a push pull.

Jon Irsik · Post by **Jon Irsik** » 13 Mar 2023 5:09 pm

TRAP TRULY wrote:I sent the pictures to reputable source and he confirmed that it is a early ‘64 Emmons. Jon, did you get the serial number?

No, I did not.

TRAP TRULY · Post by **TRAP TRULY** » 13 Mar 2023 5:45 pm

Looks like the mystery is solved, what a shame, I’ve heard some of those early Emmons guitars were not very playable. Maybe that’s why it was done.

Chris Lucker · Post by **Chris Lucker** » 13 Mar 2023 6:53 pm

The four October 1964 Emmons guitars were wood neck Wraparound Bolt-ons. I had two, and turned down a third of the four. Herb had two. Number 10 actually was converted to metal necks.
This guitar in the photos does not look like one of the four. The tailpiece does not match the correct castings -- in fact, it may not be a casting. The pickups are not what you would find. A view of the control panel cutout would be helpful. It is a shame I cannot see the pedals as the shafts will tell the story. As will the bellcranks. The fretboards are not from the first eighteen months, but they could have been changed.
I have seen four guitars made by Ron Sr, three of which were sold out of his house, and they were Wraparound Bolt-ons, but they did not look like this guitar either.
Here is a correct one --This is 1064008W and I think I bought this from Herb. The diagonal magnet pickups are out off this guitar:

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 13 Mar 2023 9:27 pm

Number 8 had a sound like no other Emmons I've ever owned. Lynn Stafford acquired it for a time, and I was just informed this weekend of it's current owner. I hope it's being used well.

Chris Lucker · Post by **Chris Lucker** » 13 Mar 2023 10:40 pm

Herb, Russ Blake, or Rusty Blake for Lucky Stars fans, borrowed the guitar from me I think when he still lived in LA. We were kicking around a trade deal with his Cherry wood Bigsby.
When Russ snd Jackie moved to Portland we did some sort of deal and #8 was his.
Lynne got the guitar from Russ, I believe.
I still have the pickups, or at least one. They are a matched pair but only one has the serial number. I acquired them by luck a little more than a year after I got the wraparounds from you.

Larry Chung · Post by **Larry Chung** » 14 Mar 2023 9:57 am

Great Emmons history and details right there. Thanks to all of you for sharing your knowledge and experience. And to bOb for making it all possible.

I play a mid-70s wood neck bolt-on and it has something different going on, a sweet tone and response from the other push-pulls I've played (and own, too).

I should have figured that some of the earliest Emmons were wood necks, but it's nice to be able to read some of the details here.

Cheers,
LC

Chris Lucker · Post by **Chris Lucker** » 14 Mar 2023 10:06 am

Larry Chung wrote: I should have figured that some of the earliest Emmons were wood necks, but it's nice to be able to read some of the details here.

Cheers,
LC

Only guitars 7-10, were wood neck. Their serial numbers ended in "W." Number 10 has metal necks now, but it has the "W" serial number.

The wood neck guitars were the first ones with a control panel on the top deck between the necks. The control panel helped keep the two top decks spread apart and straight. When Emmons went to a larger diameter axle, they needed to mill a dropped down ledge in the tailpiece to accommodate the bigger axle pillows -- otherwise the strings would have been too high.

Jon Irsik · Post by **Jon Irsik** » 14 Mar 2023 10:23 am

I'd also like to add my appreciation to all who contributed to this discussion. I've always been primarily a Sho-Bud player but it's undeniable that a good push pull has it's own great sound, will be looking to add one when the right deal comes around. I appreciate the wisdom and insight that y'all were so willing to share. Good stuff!

Jon Irsik · Post by **Jon Irsik** » 14 Mar 2023 10:38 am

It's back if anyone in the area cares to investigate:

https://www.guitarcenter.com/Used/In-St ... p-Steel.gc