The Steel Guitar Forum

Folks, I have a Stage One (3pedals, 4levers) which has a Pull release vs the Encore which has an “All Pull” mechanism. I know that with the Stage One I cannot change its setup.

But my question when it is time (its not yet) to upgrade.......is the All Pull mechanism the next step or am I missing something more important to the PSG?


Thank you

Dave

Hey Dave,

Not sure about current builders but in the past there have been pull/release guitars that allowed for adjustable copedents.

Just so happens that yours is not one of them. You should have a definable reason for a different copedent.

That's a fine guitar.

h

The simple fact is that all-pull design has been the "pro" standard of the industry for decades. Some people continue to play other types, and play them for various reasons. But the popularity and the practicality of the all-pull design speaks for itself.

Indeed. In the early days, pro guitars were all pull-release because it was the only method yet available. Nowadays that system is used to reduce complexity and cost in student models.

For a time, there was a tradeoff between the superior tone of the pull-release and the greater flexibilty of the all-pull, but the latter seems to have caught up now.

It's been a while since I've worked on a Stage one, but from what I remember there are some things about them as pull release guitars that are more similar to an all pull than an older Permanent style pull release. They are great sounding little guitars don't get me wrong, but the changer design is quite different from on old sho-bud, marlen, miller, or bigsby.

First, they don't use a solid aluminum finger. It's a stamped aluminum type changer. Those big old stock aluminum fingers are a big part of the tone equation in the old guitars, imo.

Second, the fingers rest at a zero point all in line together. This is sort of the opposite of a pull release guitar. What makes the old guitars so stable and sound so good is that when you press the A & B pedals down - all 4 of those big fingers hit the body at the same time and don't waver. Similarly, on the lowers they are stopped by the big tuning screws at the back of the changer. On a Stage One, when you lower a string, it releases as far from that resting place as it needs to go and then just hangs there on the rod/nylon tuner. The only time the full length of the rod will affect the tuning on an old pull release guitar is the open tuning note on a string that's both raised and lowered, or on a string that's being raised two different amounts (4th string F lever). I use a steel rod for that, which will be more resistant to expanding or contracting bc of weather than an aluminum rod.

To get back to your original question about the Stage One vs Encore. The Stage One is great for what it is, but in my opinion it's not taking advantage of the benefits of a pull release changer enough to justify ruling out a similar guitar with an all pull changer. The Stage One has a simple changer, which probably contributes to the good tone, but it's really it's own thing and not directly comparable to the old guitars. Of course I could be completely wrong about all of this so take what I say with a grain of salt.

Dave Falk, the all pull is not necessarily BETTER, it is just more flexible to do more involved setups.

To clarify some points in Brett's post -

On a Stage One, the ball end of the string is anchored in a steel changer finger, this finger is attached to a thick aluminum ring that the string rides on.

The steel finger rests against the cast aluminum endplate on strings which are raised in pitch or are not raised or lowered at all.

In the case of a string that is lowered in pitch, there is a recess in the endplate where a tuning stop screw is located. When the finger is released to lower the pitch of the string the finger moves backwards and stops at this screw. The finger is held in starting position by a nylon tuning nut on a rod going to the bellcrank. This open string is tuned by the tuning key at the keyhead. This same string may also be raised in pitch.

A pedal or lever raising a string is stopped at a positive stop on the inside front or rear apron of the body of the guitar. A raised note is tuned with a nylon tuning nut.

No tuning underneath the guitar is required, no balancing of raises and lowers using springs or such method as that - it is all done at the endplate.

I have heard all the talk about fine tone produced due to the changer fingers stopping against the body. So how is it that the same string sounds good when that finger is not in contact with the body???? Experiments I have witnessed have never been conclusive on this little fine point.

On a pull-release instrument a raised string is held against the body where it dissipates very little vibrational energy.

On an all-pull, it is held by the pedal stop via a cross shaft, a bell crank, a pull rod and a nylon tuner, all of which have a degree of elasticity. Not much on a modern instrument, admittedly, but the stop point is still a long way from the ball end.

In both systems, the unraised finger rests on a backstop. On pull-release models the resting pitch adjuster is typically a #10/32 machine screw through the changer frame, so pretty solid.

Dave - Generally, the all pull mechanism is probably the easier of the two mechanisms on which to make copedent changes, especially for the inexperienced. However, there are still many pull release steels out there. My first steel was a pull release. One day I decided I wanted to make a copedent change or two. I didn't know any better, so I dove under there and made the adjustments on my own. Sometimes ignorance is bliss. I had to post a couple of questions here, but everything turned out fine; well, ok anyway. I learned some tips for tweaking to attain better playability after that, but the basics remain the same. I now own all pull steels, and have made adjustments to them, too. It is whatever you prefer and can get used to. I think anyone with a basic degree of mechanical ability, a few tools, and the determination can learn both mechanisms. Tone trumps everything for me. I wouldn't let mechanism be the deciding factor when considering a steel guitar purchase. Heck, I even jumped into the push-pull pool some time ago. I'm still dog paddling, but that's another story. One other consideration is how often you expect to make copedent changes. Once you find your preferred copedent, you might never make a major change again...maybe. It is a process, a journey. The good news is that you're in the right place. This forum is the absolute best source of steel guitar related information. Who knows? Maybe you'll do like a lot of us here and have to have one (or more) of each.

Speaking of Stage One guitars, take some time to watch these videos of Leo Grassl, playing a Stage One, backing up Josh Hedley:


https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=3113837

~Lee

I've been playing for 55 years professionally and still own and play instruments of all three types, so with my experience I'd offer these general suggestions to any players with similar situations as the OP:

IF you're a somewhat experienced player who's been playing the same tuning for a long time with no interest in changing, but would love to have a guitar that got the very sweet retro sound of the pull-release guitars of the 50s and 60s, I'd say go for a pull-release if, and it's a BIG IF, the guitar is in relatively good shape... all parts there, the changer works (not necessarily in tune, but "working.") But have it checked over by a player with some experience, or if the seller comes of good report.

IF however, you're a rank or experienced beginner, or an intermediate player or even an experienced player who wants the ability to easily try new or temporary changes to the undercarriage of his guitar, the pull-release is probably not the horn for you. The all-pull guitar is the closest to a "plug and play" pedal steel as we have at the moment.

After reading my post above, I want to add that my comments are about VINTAGE pull-release guitars, not current student models, of which I have no experience. I was referring to older Sho~Buds, Marlens, Millers, Bigsbys/Clinesmiths, and others from that era of design.

All the above IMHO, of course...

That's sound advice, Herb. One thing I'd add here is that I've found it somewhat necessary to pull the changers out every year or so to clean. Each time I do that the difference in playability and the way the fingers return is very noticeable. There's a lot of surface contact with the fingers and changer axle, so removing the dirty oil really helps. I travel a lot, and usually play a fair amount of dusty festivals... But if you're mainly playing at home and club gigs you won't have to do it as often.

I had a young new player bring a fairly old Marlen Single 10 to me to setup.... unfortunately I don't have any experience with pull release mechanisms, so I was wondering if there is a definitive "guide" available somewhere on here which would assist me in making a couple of changes to the copedant, and also how to tune and adjust the beast ???
The guitar is a Marlen S10, 3 pedal 1 knee pull release guitar. pedals are standard Emmons, and the knee lowers both E's a half tone. The guitar is probably 30 + years old.
Any advise would be gratefully accepted :-}

Paddy,
Please post a few pics of it, once we have that I'd be happy to walk you through it.

Paddy Long wrote:I had a young new player bring a fairly old Marlen Single 10 to me to setup.... unfortunately I don't have any experience with pull release mechanisms, so I was wondering if there is a definitive "guide" available somewhere on here which would assist me in making a couple of changes to the copedant, and also how to tune and adjust the beast ???
The guitar is a Marlen S10, 3 pedal 1 knee pull release guitar. pedals are standard Emmons, and the knee lowers both E's a half tone. The guitar is probably 30 + years old.
Any advise would be gratefully accepted :-}

Paddy.. Thats a tough one, especially because you are on the other side of the world,and can't really bring it to someone that knows these guitars.. I added a pedal to, and changed 4 knees to different pulls on my S10 Marlen, and it was by far and away, the toughest single job I have ever attempted on any pedal steel at any time in my life .. I had to pull the aluminum frames out of the body I recall..I kept at it and kept at it, and after weeks of adjustments I finally got it right, but it was really tough.. I play that guitar daily, and its never budged from about 15 years ago when I first dug into it... I got some help here I recall, but even then it was tough. However, with 3 and 1 you should be able to get enough help here to at least get you started. Mine was 4+4 and there was a lot of interference. Might want to make a dedicated post here on the forum with good clear pics, and a description of the problems you are having and the results you are looking for.... bob

paddy, check your PM's,,,

Dave Falk wrote:Folks, I have a Stage One (3pedals, 4levers) which has a Pull release vs the Encore which has an “All Pull” mechanism. I know that with the Stage One I cannot change its setup.

But my question when it is time (its not yet) to upgrade.......is the All Pull mechanism the next step or am I missing something more important to the PSG?


Thank you

Dave

This thread has seemed to veer off on a tangent. To answer your question as to whether your "upgrade" instrument should be all-pull, the answer probably yes.... simply because you'll have to look pretty hard to find a modern pro model that isn't. Of course, don't walk away from a push-pull Emmons, but just about every pro model being made today is going to be an all-pull.