The Steel Guitar Forum

I was asked recently why I still play an Emmons guitar rather than any of the new, improved models by various makers. The question was from a new player looking to get his first 'pro' model d10.
The answer, for me, is easy and of course is purely a personal opinion. I, like most pros, or not, have played what we can say is a plethora of steels. All conditions, all circumstances, all venues. I've thought, like everyone, 'what the heck is it that draws me to this particular brand of instrument?'
I think, for myself, I have an answer.
There seems to me to be something in the basic tone of an Emmons, especially a pp, in the mid-range response that is missing in literally all the other makes.
I've heard this describe by guitar players for decades as 'bark'. When I've been asked, again for decades, why I play an Emmons I would just answer by 'I like the tone' and that would say it all for me.
There IS a different basic tone to an Emmons, and I truly believe the guitar players get the point for the best description for the 'special attribute' for these stringed beasts.
I am in NO way knocking modern builders..I rarely see an Emmons from former times on TV anymore and the players are great playing their guitar of choice.
Remember, I said this is me and why I play what I do....I speak for no one but myself.
BTW, I'm still working on the mids I'm referring to....but while I'm here, I notice that a lot of steel players, in my opinion(again), shoot themselves in the foot by removing a lot of mids on their amps..for some reason. To me, this is a pure 'tone killer'.

I don't pay any attention to what people play; it doesn't concern me in the least. I pay attention to how well they play. I saw Buddy play a dozen different brands, and he sounded great on all of them!

YMMV

When I was a young man I wanted a Gibson Les Paul, because everybody had one and that was the deal. After many copies and years later I bought a trade in. I believe it's my least favorite guitar in my stable. I own several makes of pedal steels and they all play and sound good. Some better than others but I'm satisfied with them. My favorite is a Derby SD10 3x5 for its tone, tuning stability and action. So in summary, I think it's like our favorite pair of shoes. They all get the job done but some are just right.

....but while I'm here, I notice that a lot of steel players, in my opinion(again), shoot themselves in the foot by removing a lot of mids on their amps..for some reason. To me, this is a pure 'tone killer'.

I would like for you to elaborate on that, please.

Thanks!

~Lee

Lee, I play my '76 Emmons P/P with minimal mids because at a steel show in Indy in '78, Buddy Emmons told me to. I've played through a number of different amps with the same steel and I still like it. I've been told, quite a few times, that my steel was among the best sounding P/P guitars some of my friends ever heard. My playing doesn't do my steel justice but I think we all play a little better when we're happy with the tone. I just use the steel, Omni VP and Peavey Nashville 400.

Please keep in mind this is an opinion piece. I've thought a lot about why players usually go for the 'scooped mid' sound, sometimes really scooped, and just wondered why. Maybe it became kinda' the go to sound because of earlier players used a lot of Fender amps which came with that EQ outta the box....dunno.
For myself, I've pretty much always run an EQ pedal, started with a 5 band and ended up with a few more, on my pedal board live.

I have tried various manufacturers so far, and they all sound like me.

Donny Hinson wrote:I don't pay any attention to what people play; it doesn't concern me in the least. I pay attention to how well they play. I saw Buddy play a dozen different brands, and he sounded great on all of them!

YMMV

I agree 100%. Good players always sound good. There is no magic instruments, amps, string brand, etc... I guess experimenting with gear combinations is part of the musician addiction, but at the end of the day it's up to the player.

RC

Jeff, I agree with everything you said about Emmons and the tone. I got my first pp a few years back and ended up selling both of my all pulls, I now have 3 PPs and will never go back to anything else.
I usually scoop the mids because it sounds nasally to me, how do you find a sweet spot?

Jeff, the push pulls always pull me back in. It really is the midrange. I’m able to play single note melodic phases under the singer and have it stay full and present without being obtrusive. I’m back to push pulls because I got one of those new Emmons guitars. It is freeing me up. The whole range is now available with every part of the neck sounding clear and full. Dig in for the growl and bite or pick even and the notes are like a string of pearls. Chords are solid with no frequencies sqwonking out and no mud.

The going for the twang by cutting the mids on an amp doesn’t work for me either.

Donny Hinson wrote:I don't pay any attention to what people play; it doesn't concern me in the least. I pay attention to how well they play. I saw Buddy play a dozen different brands, and he sounded great on all of them!

YMMV

Donny, you are right of cause, when it comes to listeners. But for the player himself/herself, if the guitar gives the tone and feeling that he likes, it can be a stimulating factor.

Good points Jeff and Bob. I dunno how it came to be that the consensus was to cut mids. When you cut mids on your amp, you lose volume, body and bottom end.

Try turning all your eq controls to 0 and see what you have.

I followed along cutting the mids to about 9 on the NV400 at about 800Hz until the above was pointed out to me and was an issue I seemed to always be fighting.. Since, I set them about 3 on that amp and tend to use more mid frequency in general with other amps.

OTOH, some guitars have more mids inherent, enter the Emmons push pull as mentioned by Jeff and Bob. They just do. This is not by amplifier settings, it's an undeniable character of the guitars.

They don't all sound the same. The guitar sounds like the guitar sounds and the player plays like the player plays.

These are just my own observations in 40+ years and over a dozen different guitars. Just a hack player with what I consider to be a discriminating ear.

I revisited the mid setting on my amp last night and it does seem to give the sound more breath. I was playing a pp through a toneblock 202 set at about 9-10 o’clock

Another tonal illusion that sometimes plagues steel players is pumping the lows because it feels good on stage. Those low frequencies do not make it to the pa because they are high passed at the board. This is necessary for the overall room mix. Plus they don’t travel more than about 10 feet from the amp so nobody hears them while the stage sound turns to mud. The amount of volume it takes for the player to feel the lows is substantial. It makes the twang sound which has a large amount of 2k in it sound shrill once you are more than 10 feet from your amp. So you get turned down by the sound guy because it can be a very annoying sound.

That common knowledge type tone setting is a very particular sound and can be awesome but I see it often limiting the role the instrument can play.

I found a kinda' lack of tone control in combo amps pretty early, I guess around '78 or 79 and went to a rack set up. Crown power and Furman front end. What addicted me to having more control was the addition of a Furman PQ3 three channel EQ. Ran that for a short while and bought another, and with 6 channels I really felt in control of what I wanted to hear. I never got into graphics 'cause when I started all that was available were, (I think), 16 or 32 bands and that seemed a little overkill even for me.
EQ pedals are so good now, that a small pedalboard is all I need now.

Whenever this question about guitar tone comes up, I feel it's a good idea to go back to the source...

Buddy Emmons wrote:
I have two Legrande III models, one of which I used on Gene Watson's last album. Just for the record, I used a Carter D-10 on Gene's Gospel album and for all practical purposes, I can't tell a dime's worth of difference, but what do I know?

(2/17/02)

I very rarely chime in on these discussions, but here goes:
Some years ago I happened to be in Jim Palenscar's shop while JayDee Manees was playing one of his push pulls. What struck me about his sound was that it was like a '59 Fender Strat. There was clarity but also the notes had a "punch", an almost percussive way they emerged from the guitar. It reminds me of the difference between a Gibson 335 and the aforementioned Strat. I love my 335's - just like I love my Rittenberry guitars. But the "feel" and response of the push pulls is a very real thing. I will always keep my old p/p ... I gig a lot with an SD 10 Ritt (lighter ) ... but the p/p records so well and feels so good I always go back to it.

jim

Donny Hinson wrote:Whenever this question about guitar tone comes up, I feel it's a good idea to go back to the source...

Buddy Emmons wrote:
I have two Legrande III models, one of which I used on Gene Watson's last album. Just for the record, I used a Carter D-10 on Gene's Gospel album and for all practical purposes, I can't tell a dime's worth of difference, but what do I know?

(2/17/02)

Yeabut, Jeff's post is about Emmons Push Pull guitars of which there is no mention in that quote.

In keeping with Jeff's analysis, here's another quote from Buddy. "...The push pulls are notorious for mid range quality"

here's another quote from Buddy. "...The push pulls are notorious for mid range quality"

That is exactly what I would like to read more about.

Others have made the same statement on here, perhaps merely echoing what Mr. Emmons said.

~Lee

Okay Jerry, here's another quote from "The Man":

Buddy Emmons wrote:
Over the years I've had hundreds of players sit down at The Blade and play through my amp with my tone settings and they ended up sounding like they did on their own guitars.

Jeff's post concerned the midrange character of the Emmons push pull. I don't speak for him but, I don't believe he is comparing his playing to anyone elses. He and Buddy are describing what they hear as a sonic character of the guitar compared to the many others they have played.

I doubt that he sounds like Buddy or Buddy sounded like him. None of that has to do with the push pull's character.

I'm steadfast in my belief that these are 2 different things. I believe that you don't feel the same way. Fair enough.

Here’s another from Buddy…

From: Buddy
Date: 12 Mar 2002
I have two Legrande lll models. I prefer the Emmons push pull sound but find the advantages of the all pull mechanism make up for the slight difference in the sound of the two guitars. Both models cut well; I just bleed a bit more on the push pull.

Donny ,
The question you are answering is not the one being asked. If you are trying to assert that equipment will not make you a better player than everyone on this thread is in full agreement.

If you are saying that all guitars sound and feel the same than you are wrong. They don’t. There are differences that are available to suit whatever you like.

If you are protecting the inexperienced from thinking they need to buy certain products in order to sound good instead of practicing than you are assuming that the inexperienced are fools.

This is a thread about why a player prefers the instrument they play. It is a valid subject. Why the constant insistence on degrading any discussion about the various qualities of different guitars ? I would like to hear why you like your steel. What makes it feel right ? What sonic or mechanical properties does it have that might suit other players ? How does it contribute to your unique voice ? What modifications have you made to it and what would make it better ?

In the context of this thread what is your experience with emmons pp’s as a player ?

Btw: Your experience and perspective are extremely valuable and I have benefited from your posts personally.

Bob, as you might imagine, I've played a bunch of pedal steels...and own a few, too. (And yes, one of them is an Emmons push/pull.) Each one of the guitars that I've owned and played has some qualities that I find good, and some that I find not so good. Suffice it to say I'm really not that crazy about any of them.

I absolutely love the tone/inherent sound threads. It makes for some great information and entertaining reading.

We haven't had a tone war in a long time. It's been sort of dead around here. ...