The Steel Guitar Forum

here is a mock up of the new keyless tuner I'm working on

Picture file

Oops,,,wrong picture ,,I'll have to send later

That picture is the tuner I built for Fred Justice

This is the new tuner,,laid up on an old cabinet,,,the later ones won't have the screw holes in the framework

Nice.
Is it pulling vertically down?

Thanks!... J-D.

Yes,,,straight down. A little tweaking to do,,,but definitely workable

Nice rendition. Here's one I made a few years ago for my pedal steel. It's the only picture I have since I sold the instrument. The tuning screws and the screws holding the string are the same so it uses a T-handle hex wrench for installation and tuning. the tuning screws are fine pitch.

Karlis

I think we can sum up 4 different key-less tuner types:

- Vertical push down (Lamar and above version)
- Horizontal-Screw-Ridden-Sleight (Williams)
- Horizontal-Push-Off lever.
- Push-Down-Lever (Sierra Session), some Excel


SIZE seems to be the first most obvious difference, screw ridden-sleight and bush down levers being the larger ones and Horizontal Push-Off and Vertical-Push-Down.

Yet, I think that there are Body-Contact considerations to study here too.
String pull, can be changed in direction via "pulleys" (nuts and roller nuts).
We know about the endless debate of top-mounted string attach versus thru-the-body. The angle at which the strings pull on the body could affect a guitars sound because how it stresses and thus involves a guitar's body or sound-board.

just trying to dig up a new problem, as my wife would rate this?

... J-D.

Those rollers look great!

Hi there Sonny, I haven't even finished building the guitar for my keyless you built me.

I wonder if some have A-B'ed keyless tuners that have a "horizontal"-tuning pull against those which have a vertical (down) tuning-pull as to SOUND?


I temped to "feel" that pulling "almost horizontal" against, pushing the tuning crew against the other side, would seem the tone-logical way to go... but then, the down pull like the two example shown above, would seem reminiscent of the "string-thru-the-body"-attach which was in part credited for the tonal characteristics of early pre-WWII non pedal steel guitars like the Rickenbacher B's.

I understand, they are not located on the "sound"-side and thus the tonal implication may be more difficult to discern, IF at all.

Thanks!...J-D.

Looking at Karlis’s picture, I can’t help but wonder how necessary are those rollers on the nut with so little string remaining between the roller and the tightening mechanism? As opposed to a standard key head with guitar tuners and several inches of string from the roller nut to the tuner.

Bill

A double ball string for a keyless would be the ultimate keyless steel.
I'm surprised know one has made a keyless that uses a double ball string.

Bill Burch wrote:Looking at Karlis’s picture, I can’t help but wonder how necessary are those rollers on the nut with so little string remaining between the roller and the tightening mechanism? As opposed to a standard key head with guitar tuners and several inches of string from the roller nut to the tuner.

Bill

I've asked myself the same question many times. I don't like too many parts... they have to have "play" to function friction-free and thus can move and by doing so, suck up vibrating energy out of sustain. On the South of the bar-hand, the effect may be negligible, but still, it's parts.

On the other hand, "StringHysterysis" is a known problem with PSG. The extremely shortened string length behind the KeyLess tuner would suggest that that problem too should be negligible... but then, I must say that I can sense it on some strings with raises and lowers. And so far, all the Keyless PSG's I've had and play have rollers.

Then, lets look at the extreme: the early Fender 400 with the changer AFTER the "pencil"-bridge without rollers. Evidently roller soon followed and the final models saw the changer in the bridge position. Return-issues were often discussed on the earlier models. Of course the changer side generates the bulk of the movement, (although the STRECH is proportionally equal on each string total exposed length.

I wished somebody would TEST a KeyLess tuner without roller nuts and A-B'it against the same with rollers.

Johnie King wrote: A double ball string for a keyless would be the ultimate keyless steel.
I'm surprised know one has made a keyless that uses a double ball string.

IF i remember well, there was a prototype of the sort, and IF there was, I don't know what the verdict was.
However, I see one major hurdle:
When you string up a Keyless PSG, given that the tuning has a very limited tension range (vs. a traditional crank-tuner which can turn and turn on and on) the string needs to be installed "pre-tensioned". Some like to use a 1/2" dia. nylon rod with a hole to thread the string thru and wrap it up to pull the string before locking it. Excel now has a lockable pre-wrap device to pre-tense the string before tuning.
With ball-to-ball, I just don't see you one would put the string on, already pre-tensed(?).

... J-D.

here is a very simple design i made for a 14 string lap steel. 1/4" angle aluminum...drill holes for adjustment screws...make some aluminum blocks to hold the strings. there you go. you can see on the ends where i added two more strings. now has 16 strings.

Chiming in on this, I want to point out the positives of the vertical system. The tuner I built has a long throw which makes the rest simple. I raised the individual tuner until the top of the tuner was above the level of the rollers. At that point I inserted the string and pulled it hand tight and locked the string in place. I then turned the tuner adjustment screw until the string was up to pitch. Simple. No muss, no fuss, no pre-tension. The key was having enough throw which is no problem on the vertical tuner.

Regarding the double ball approach, I see benefits and drawbacks. The clear benefit is simplicity. Another benefit is no pre-tension required but it requires sufficient throw in the mechanism. The big drawback that I see is the requirement of length standardization. To get a manufacturer to make something like a 10 string set of double ball strings would require a commitment to a standard scale length / total string length so that they could sell a lot of sets and make money. Unfortunately, I don't see a standard scale length in the steel guitar world. This is just my opinion.

Karlis

Maybe make a set of strings
I agree not enough sales quantity too justify a string company too manufacture double ball strings for keyless pedal steels.

Johnie King wrote:Maybe make a set of strings
I agree not enough sales quantity too justify a string company too manufacture double ball strings for keyless pedal steels.

Good luck predicting the final length of the string with that contraption.
As I said... for keyless, unless one comes up with a mechanism that allows for near "endless" pulling, most require the string to be pre-tensioned before locking. You I don't see how one would pre-tense a string with a fixed length like a both ends balled string would be. And then ALL the strings would have to come with a very tight tolerance length for the same reason.

It's an interesting idea, but would probably require a pre-tensing AND fine tuning mechanism (which is what newer Excel guitars are so far the only ones to have, yet without use of both end balled strings).


... J-D.

Johnie King wrote:Maybe make a set of strings
I agree not enough sales quantity too justify a string company too manufacture double ball strings for keyless pedal steels.

Good luck predicting the final length of the string with that contraption.
As I said... for keyless, unless one comes up with a mechanism that allows for near "endless" pulling, most require the string to be pre-tensioned before locking. You I don't see how one would pre-tense a string with a fixed length like a both ends balled string would be. And then ALL the strings would have to come with a very tight tolerance length for the same reason.

It's an interesting idea, but would probably require a pre-tensing AND fine tuning mechanism (which is what newer Excel guitars are so far the only ones to have, yet without use of both end balled strings).


... J-D.