The Steel Guitar Forum

Hello

I'm way down deep in the youtube transcription rabbit hole, trying to master the most efficient picking patterns early on. Having a real hard time with palm blocks when I do alternating thumb/middle no matter how I hold my hand. I switched to thumb index and suddenly it's way better. It does put my middle finger in a different location but I seem to be able to use that finger when needed, mostly double stop index/middle. I think it may be that my middle finger is a bit long compared to my index. I'm also a double bass player and guitar player, so right had patterns are well established on other instruments for me. Question is: am I on the right track? Are there different schools on this?

Thanks in advance
Bryce

If you're experimenting with different ways to cross-pick, yes, you're on the right track. Some people's index finger works better than their middle. Use whichever is most comfortable.

Keep in mind you may very well find that there are certain passages you're playing where the less-used finger will suddenly make more sense. This, rather than always using the same old thumb-finger combo for cross-picking, no matter what.

So figure out your most comfortable default, but be willing to regularly revisit the idea of working in the weak finger when the part you're playing calls for it. When you've been playing a while, you'll probably find you can use either finger, even though one will feel better than the other...

Thanks Tucker

That's what I suspected. I'm not new to music, just the pedal steel. I can play passages equally well cross picking thumb/index versus thumb/middle, but the blocking wasn't happening on the latter. Long middle finger and thin palms are the culprit. Saw someone on youtube playing a great version of Crazy Arms, and was using the thumb/index. Suddenly I can palm block with ease!!

Bryce

No one knows your hands like you do! There are certain advantages to each method, so just pick whichever one works best for you right now and go on playing.

Also would suggest learning pick blocking to open up alternate ways to execute.

Yes, thanks for that. I'm also pick blocking where appropriate. Trying to let the music dictate more than forcing technique. But I was really stuck on not being able to easily palm mute without forcing my hand down or turning it in a way that made picking awkward. I have some technique already on open tuning slide guitar so trying to transfer where appropriate

Bruce has highlighted how difficult it is to give general advice when individual anatomy varies so much.

The second finger is usually stronger and more mobile than the first, and most players appear to favour thumb and middle (including myself). But personal geometry wins.

Watch the ride at about 1:12
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXPwD3RZ_Ng

Dogmatic instruction on pedal steel gets questioned a lot here, and from what little I know, it seems like for good reason. We can’t even settle on how to tune the thing. If I want to cross pick the same way I do on guitar, that’s my business. I can call it “Right Hand Alfalfa”...

Bryce Van Parys wrote: But I was really stuck on not being able to easily palm mute without forcing my hand down or turning it in a way that made picking awkward.

I'm certainly not a great or famous player, but I don't think palm muting or picking (read: basic hand/finger positions) should ever be forced. Rather, it is the natural position for the picking hand to rest on the strings. It's really no different than resting your hand on a desk or surface when you're writing, and should be just as natural. The palm/heel-edge adds stability to the picking fingers, normally, and is lifted only to un-mute those strings being muted. My own natural playing sequence is - hand resting on the strings, lift hand (palm/heel) to pick required strings, and hand back down to re-mute/rest as necessary. Keep in mind that so-called "palm muting" techniques also sometimes includes muting done by the edges or knuckles of the ring and little finger.

Because different players may have varying physiologies, techniques may differ from player to player. So, while there really is no one and only "right way" to do things, there is usually a "best way" for each player.

I have been down the same rabbit hole over the years regarding which finger/s to designate. Through many experiments i find that strings 10-6 works best thumb and 1st finger... and strings 5-1 thumb/middle finger, although it's not that to a Tee but starting from 10-1 that's how i designate it.

I have also found that doing just thumb and only one finger can become very taxing on one finger, so i went to designating two fingers.

Another is to mix it up, practicing with swapping duties so when there is a passage there is flow without hesitation.I spend a lot of time looking at fingerings as part of my work out.

I'm not player of status so anything i say has no clout, but it's just a thought.

right or wrong? I do not believe so. What works for you may not work for me.

My novice feeling is try the ways others state BUT do it the way it feels best for
you

Sam

This is why I love the Pedal Steel community; y'all are a very pragmatic and helpful group by nature. Kind of like double bass players to the orchestra (of which I was in a former life). There's a reason nearly all Luthiers in the violin community are bass players.

The responses here are in line with my own conclusions. Do what is best for you, try a variety of techniques, the the music and comfort dictate, etc. I didn't hear any technical reason why I should avoid the index as dominant in my cross picking, so I'm sticking with that because I can do it so much more naturally, especially the muting. I too find the fist 4 strings better with middle finger/thumb, so I've naturally adopted that for the top, and then the index thub for strings 5-10. Thanks for all the advice, off to practice.

Bryce

Practice as many techniques as you can and go with what is closest to the dynamics you are trying to create with each pass> Like I did HERE>

https://youtu.be/WParxip-RJM

Ricky

Hot damn Ricky!

Indeed. Hot damn Ricky!!!!

Ricky, my smartphone just melted a little!

One piece of advice I heard early on which was helpful for me was to think of palm blocking as "always on". In other words, your default position is to mute your strings, and you "release" the strings to vibrate. Not sure if that's helpful to anyone else, but it helped me flip my thinking about blocking and play more efficiently.

I'm still not very good though.

Ricky Davis wrote:Practice as many techniques as you can and go with what is closest to the dynamics you are trying to create with each pass> Like I did HERE>

https://youtu.be/WParxip-RJM

Ricky

The guitar and steel together is a real treat.

Do whatever works. Some people even use a flat pick.

Sticking the right hand pinky finger out will promote tighter palm blocking and bring your curl closer to the strings which also puts the middle finger in a better position. Increases speed. The middle finger creates a better matching tone to the thumb.

I agree the thumb/middle is a more balanced sound. I just have thin palms apparently. I can't get a good block in the middle of my palm even with my pinky out. I switch to index and suddenly it's all better... I'll go put on some weight

And keep in mind that it's sometimes helpful to keep your extra fingers curled under... and they end up touching the strings you're blocking. That way, the edge of your hand isn't responsible for doing all the work.

I tend to move my hand across the strings keeping the order middle/index/thumb. They all seem to get equal time. I have never picked the highest three strings with my thumb. for example.
However, I noticed speed picker extraordinare, Buck Reed, uses his thumb and middle finger regardless of where he is laterally.

Get on You tube and bring up of Russ Hicks playing steel. He uses his Thumb and Index finger for 2 strings and reaches out with his middle finger to pick forward strings.
Mr. Davis and Mr. Hicks styles are close in attack.

Russ has a unique style and gets the job done. Worth duplicating.

When playing an extended run, or triplets as long as you are comfortable getting the middle finger in there to get the next note quick enough and accurate, I don't think it matters. For slow tunes it really doesn't matter at all.