Playing on stage with no amps

Dick Wood · Post by **Dick Wood** » 20 Jan 2022 7:24 am

I'm just curious about your experience/thoughts of playing on stage with no amps.

Last weekend, our band decided to try playing without amps and having the drummer play using electronic drums.

I went to the gig with nothing but negative thoughts about how this was going to sound. If your soundman is basically a wire it all up and set some levels and let it run then it can sound like crap out front if he doesn't have a good ear for how to best EQ instruments.

Well, I have to say I thought my steel sounded really good, maybe better than when using an amp and the drums weren't knocking my head off for the first time in years.

If this is the new way, it will be soo nice to walk in the venue with just a preamp,steel and seat.

It would be fun to hear your experinces.

Dave Hopping · Post by **Dave Hopping** » 20 Jan 2022 9:04 am

Haven't done it myself, but I can see the benefit of having everything completely under control.

Provided,of course, that the folks doing the controlling are up to the job.....

Jim Pitman · Post by **Jim Pitman** » 20 Jan 2022 9:06 am

Dick, How did you monitor yourself?
In ear monitor with individual mix?

Kenny Davis · Post by **Kenny Davis** » 20 Jan 2022 9:29 am

We've been using "ears" and Aviom individual mixers for about 6 years. It can be good or can be bad. Our drummer won't play an electronic set and he's still loud onstage. That makes it difficult for our sound man to get things right. I still play through my amp that is run direct to the board. I have a difficult time getting the tone set the way I like it in my earbuds. It seems to sound fine out front though. Last gig I didn't use any earbuds at all. It's too "sterile" of an environment to me. I miss having a 15 inch JBL wedge in my face and feeling the bass and the drums. Using earbuds also makes it hard to hear someone when they come up to request a song.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 20 Jan 2022 10:15 am

We went to 'in-ears' at the Summer gig that I did in Medora, ND for many years.

While I didn't enjoy the sterile tone from my steel (the amp was miles away in some remote cabinet under the stage), it was a real blessing to have everything under control, and for each of us to be able to tailor our Aviom mixes to suit ourselves.

As for the front-of-house sound, well, that depends on the good instincts of your sound-guy. We were in good hands with the excellent Ryan Milligan controlling things from the back of the amphitheater. He has to deal with all of it - instruments and vocals, often when the performers are dancing at the same time. If you've got a 'Ryan', then you'll be good.

Dick Wood · Post by **Dick Wood** » 20 Jan 2022 10:52 am

Jim, we use IEM’s with individual mixes. We each have apps on our phones or iPads. I know what you mean by missing the feeling on stage. I really didn’t miss it once I had both monitors plugged in my ears. I never have drums in my mix but I do now that he’s using electronic drums.

Kenny Davis · Post by **Kenny Davis** » 20 Jan 2022 12:57 pm

If you decide to use inner ear monitors, be sure to use both and not just one! I see a lot of people that will drop one and keep one in their ear. Could be harmful over the long term.

https://empireears.com/blogs/news/why-y ... ar-monitor

Dick Wood · Post by **Dick Wood** » 20 Jan 2022 1:17 pm

Hi Kenny, Too late, been doing it for almost twenty years. I have some degredation in the right ear but I think it's something else. I can yawn or blow my nose real hard and it will pop open then close after a second or two.

Since going ampless last week, I am now using both.

Terry Wood · Post by **Terry Wood** » 20 Jan 2022 2:01 pm

I played that way a couple of times years ago.

Next, I absolutely refuse to play that way, no matter what band, or singer, or venue and or the pay.

Why, simple put because they are not Steel Guitarists and 99% don't have a clue about the sound of a steel guitar or tone. They are more in to being a Control Freak, than hearing your steel guitar playing.

However, with that said, it's your playing, and your gig but I'd rather stay home and watch a good movie or ballgame.

Best of luck to You!

Dick Wood · Post by **Dick Wood** » 20 Jan 2022 2:28 pm

LOL, I'm the positive Wood and you're the negative Wood. I tell ya, I was prepared to resign from the band and told our band leader that when had texted me saying they had all decided to try and go that way. IT WAS at the request of the soundman that we do this and I don't really care for him at all. It worked that night but there was some glitches along the way but no real big issues. I'll givve it a couple more times to decide if it's what I want to do.

Glenn Demichele · Post by **Glenn Demichele** » 20 Jan 2022 3:24 pm

It's weird, but maybe a necessity. I play in a bar band and we do a lot at outside festivals. We use amps (me a TT 12) and live drums and use in-ear monitors. I like to bring my amp (and so does the guitar and bassist) to maybe fill out the stage volume but especially in case anything goes wrong. That being said, the audience pretty much just hears what is coming out of the giant speakers in front of the stage.
I guess you need that power when you;re playing a big venue, but to me it only sounds like a big stereo rather than a live band. Our sound guy is great, from what people tell me, but I never get to hear the presented product.
The best sounding gig I've done recently was outside at an Elks club with a different band. We had a small PA JUST for vocals. Non-mic'd drums, bass, guitar and steel. Everything sounded great, and you could be in the audience saying "hey, the steel is over there". That's "soundstage".

Jim Pitman · Post by **Jim Pitman** » 20 Jan 2022 3:25 pm

Dick, I have the same ear characteristic whereby I can pressurize my head and literally pick up, I estimate, +20db, and minutes later it has dissipated back. I speculate either my eardrum is flacid or the network of little bones in the inner ear need more room to move.
I informed my hearing specialist about this and suggested we do an A/B comparison hearing test. She would have nothing to do with it and I'm not sure why.
Seems to me this is a mechanical issue that could be fixed with surgery.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 20 Jan 2022 6:50 pm

I've done it, and literally hate it. It removes all control of my sound from me and gives it to someone who's never played steel, and probably doesn't know zip about how it should sound, or how I want it to sound. Sure, he can crank in whatever I ask for when we start (withing the limits of the board, which is terribly limited), but from there on, it's outa my hands. Whereas, most other players rarely don't change anything but their reverb setting, I happen to be one of the (few?) steelers that likes to change his tone, reverb, and EFX settings from one song to another. I like to tailor it to the song, and whomever is singing or playing.

And I can't do that when someone else is "driving".

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 20 Jan 2022 7:13 pm

I never use in-ears. I hate ear buds of any kind - they're uncomfortable, sound like crap (to me), and I just won't do it. I want a normal ambient monitor. I also work with drummers who would never play an electronic drum kit, so in-ears wouldn't work anyway - they'd drown us all out.

However, I have gone straight from a preamp to board a number of times. I don't like it, but that was the situation when I got there. But I just bring along everything I need to control my sound, and tell the sound guy to just run it straight into the board - no channel EQ, no effects, no nothin'. I understand there may need to be overall EQ on the front-of-house and monitors. But otherwise, I will control the vertical and horizontal. And with the right preamp, it can work OK if the sound guy knows what he's doing. I've done it with a Pod, with a Sarno Revelation preamp and my regular effects board, and with my Quilter TB 201 with my regular effects board.

... but to me it only sounds like a big stereo rather than a live band.

Yes! It winds up sounding like you're in a living room listening to your stereo. So if that's what you want, why not just stay home and listen to your stereo? I like live music, and I want to play to people who like live music. The species still exists, rumors to the contrary, and despite all attempts to stamp us out.

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 20 Jan 2022 7:15 pm

Yes the "Sound man" is now the "DJ" and you are his Karaoke Machine and he now lets the crowd hear exactly what he wants and how he wants them to hear his Karaoke Machined Music.
"I THINK FREAKIN NOT"
I Refuse to progress to their side.
I will always play music; like it is supposed to be heard; no more, no less.

Ricky

David Nugent · Post by **David Nugent** » 20 Jan 2022 7:18 pm

I occasionally work with local groups who insist on no amplifiers on stage (negative past experiences with loud guitar players). My solution was to add a Quilter 'Superblock' to my pedal board which allows me to personally dial in my desired tone. The board is kept on a small stand beside my guitar for easy access. I then instruct the sound person to run all the EQ settings in my channel completely flat.

Glenn Demichele · Post by **Glenn Demichele** » 20 Jan 2022 9:45 pm

Yeah Ricky. This is the best version of this song ever. I love that there’s no guitar player Tell us about it.
https://youtu.be/gjN5CDNPDDI

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 21 Jan 2022 5:34 am

I guess I could refuse to work in situations that require me use 'in ear monitors' - like most of us, I much prefer the ambient sound from a nice amp - but to do so would disqualify me for the contract.

As long I'm doing this for my living, I'll comply with their wishes provided, of course, that the general terms of the contract are acceptable to me.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 21 Jan 2022 6:25 am

I have a regular church gig that is ampless. I also play sometimes with bands that do in ears.. It can be pretty easy on the ears. I dial in my own mix really quiet. I use the sound coming off the mains in the room then blend in what I need to play. I generally don’t have negative issues with sound guys. I sometimes ask them to take notes about any problems with my levels so I can get better at controlling my dynamics. It also establishes a positive communication.

Things I don’t like about in ears are:

The feel of the music is different. Kinda weird at first.

Noise gates make it difficult to play. I spend time with the sound guy so he turns that stuff off.

Overdriven sounds don’t sound right in the IEMs. I’m working on that one.

Over all for a working guy in ears are very positive.

Dick Wood · Post by **Dick Wood** » 21 Jan 2022 7:01 am

I hear and agree with everyone's comments cuz I'm an old cranky beer joint steel player but I'm starting to run into venues which are saying NO amps on stage.

These gigs are usually 90 minutes, start early and off early that pay what I'd make in two nights at a regular bar so I'm slowly having to adjust to these kinds of gigs.

I will say that the electric drums are not bad at all. I'm hearing more of that nice studio quality richness and not the usual loud snare,boomy over ringing ride and floor toms and cymbal crashing crap. They're smoother and much more balanced now.

As for the soundman, he did have a compressor on my channel and when everyone played, I got terrible distortion. He finally figured what was wrong and fixed it.

Don't get me wrong, I like using a monitor wedge more than I do IEM's but if everything is right, they ain't bad.

So how many play through a Marshall Stack? (I'm just kidding)

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 21 Jan 2022 7:15 am

Yeah Ricky. This is the best version of this song ever. I love that there’s no guitar player Tell us about it.
https://youtu.be/gjN5CDNPDDI

Yeah Glenn that is Pure Honky Tonk Country Music right there me and my Ex-Wife Leslie did. And yes NO guitar; so that actually makes a band with NOT ONE FRETTED INSTRUMENT..ha...and we more in tune than most bands and much harder to do that with "in-ears"..ah..ha.
Ricky

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 21 Jan 2022 4:52 pm

I didn't mention this because it was guitar-only. But this fall I had a weekly sit-down gig at a piano bar. Very cramped, and draconian restrictions on the volume. The drummer played a cajon, on which he sat; the bass player could have gone direct but brought a little bass amp. Initially I brought a small single-ended guitar amp and pedalboard with everything to get the sounds I needed, which ranged from smooth jazz/pop, 60s pop/rock, to Santana and Van Halen types of sounds.

Due to constant whining about the volume and to try to make a little more room, I decided to try a modeler straight into the board - Digitech RP350. Sounded OK, not great. The pedal was on the floor and switching sounds in a coherent way was really touchy, and the interface was not set up to easily make any manual changes to the presets. So I reverted to my pedalboard with a Behringer GDI21, a guitar DI pedal which I got on stupid deal at a big box store for $19. Set it clean, controlled my sound via pedalboard, and that sounded better and was more controllable. The speakers were flying way up above and very slightly behind us, so as long as I could be heard out front, I could hear myself.

But the problem was that the more I accommodated people, the more they demanded. It got to the point where the cajon and bass player, who cued off me to keep everything together, couldn't hear me either, and ultimately we all got fed up.

Of course, there's more to it than that. But I have not found playing to extreme volume fussbudgets rewarding in any way but a material sense. I don't need this. YMMV.

I also agree that overdriven/distorted sounds tend to suck in this scenario. I can't even imagine earbuds. I'm sure Fletcher-Munson curves have a lot to do with this. Santana and Van Halen type sounds get lost at very low volumes in a mix - these sounds, as intended, are not 'polite', for lack of a better word. If we could have just stuck to the clean pop/jazz stuff, it probably would have worked OK. But people kept on asking for more modern stuff with more aggressive, distorted guitar. I don't think they really knew what they wanted.

Kenny Davis · Post by **Kenny Davis** » 21 Jan 2022 8:58 pm

I have a standard policy if somebody comes up and tells me I'm too loud. My volume raises at least one number, minimum.

Dick Wood · Post by **Dick Wood** » 22 Jan 2022 6:12 am

You know Kenny, I got very pissed at our recently acquired soundman where he told me I was too loud at an outdoor gig.

I was using a Quilter Steelaire set at 3 and all other bands that I work with it is usually around double that and no one complains. For the rest of the night I made a noise if he asked me a question on if everything was Ok.

I like the gigs, the money, the wild crazy bra throwin women but I do have my limits.

John Booth · Post by **John Booth** » 22 Jan 2022 1:50 pm

I was in a traveling project that was totally ampless and overall I'd have to say it was a good experience. In my case we all had an app on our phones or tablets that allowed us to mix the way we wanted it in our own ears without affecting anyone else. Of course the front-line PA was mixed by a soundman, and although I was told we sounded great to the audience I only heard what I needed to hear to do my job. Quiet drums, a little bass, the main vocals and myself. As I understand it's kind of expensive to setup to do it right, but then I didn't have to pay for it. Just supplied my own Shure Earbuds and plugged my guitars into their DI Box. I enjoyed it immensely, especially after the gig when it took 5 minutes to break down and leave.