Rationale for Day setup vs Emmons set up?

Gary Hoetker · Post by **Gary Hoetker** » 18 Dec 2021 3:40 pm

I have the Day pedal set up when I bought my PSG. The Emmons ABC L to R set up seems more logical to me than Day's CBA L to R. Does either have any significant advantage or disadvantage over the other?

Johnny Cox · Post by **Johnny Cox** » 18 Dec 2021 3:46 pm

I've played both ways. I prefer Day because the ankle naturally rocks to the outside. When Buddy and Jimmy did their setups there was no terminology such as ABC, F lever, 0 pedal etc.

Bobby D. Jones · Post by **Bobby D. Jones** » 18 Dec 2021 4:23 pm

I started on Day Setup. Built a guitar set it up Day. I have bought 2 Emmons setup guitars, Set down played each about 5 minutes, Got out my tools and changed them to Day.

Posture wise, With your feet being closer together and just moving the front of your Left Foot Left to engage C or BC pedal once in a while through a song is much more comfortable to me.

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 18 Dec 2021 4:35 pm

Polls show that roughly a third of players go for the Day setup. Where it really scores is on a universal; having A next to 5 is really useful, whereas the C pedal would just be in the way.

Kelcey ONeil · Post by **Kelcey ONeil** » 18 Dec 2021 5:46 pm

I've not met but a handful of players personally who play Day, and of the countless steels I've worked on only two have been Day setup. It's all a matter of personal preference, mainly in regard to the ease of use of A and B pedals as that's 90% of playing steel.

Larry Hopkins · Post by **Larry Hopkins** » 18 Dec 2021 6:30 pm

Never have sat at a day setup guitar,but I guess your E’s would be on your right knee,.

Larry

Bobby D. Jones · Post by **Bobby D. Jones** » 18 Dec 2021 8:55 pm

On the standard E9th Day setup necks I have played, The E's were on the Left Knee. Lower on LKL and Raise on LKR. Just by rolling your foot and moving your knee the same direction. Roll foot left on B pedal and LKL lower 4/8 for 7th chord, Roll foot right on A pedal and raise 4/8 LKR for up 3 fret up move. I did not go to 4/8 levers on RKL RKR till I went to Newman's 12U tuning about 3 years ago.

If some one moves the peddles, And does not reverse the knee levers, It is a real odd duck.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 18 Dec 2021 9:23 pm

We had a poll here years ago and about 20% of the respondents played Day, compared to 80% Emmons. I think that if you're adding inside pedals, Day makes more sense. Jeff Newman was a Day player (CBA) on his U-12, and Johnny Cox on his D13th. I'd switch today if it weren't for 40+ years of Emmons (ABC) muscle memory. There are musical advantages for the 4th pedal or 5th pedal.

Bill C. Buntin · Post by **Bill C. Buntin** » 19 Dec 2021 7:23 am

I feel just like b0b does. If it weren't for 30 years of playing the Emmons set up, I think I would switch to Day. Johnny is right. My ankle naturally rocks to the outside. Which would accommodate with day pedals better. 25 years ago or so, the late Bob Rains tried to get me to switch to Day. We sat in his kitchen one day, me playing around on one of his guitars. Day pedals seem sort of goofy to me back then. But I admit I think he was right.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 19 Dec 2021 9:01 am

For example, the C6th P4 change on E9/B6 universal raises the middle G# to A# (with E's lowered for B6th mode). It is also the famous Cowboy Eddie Long's P1, next to his "A" pedal. Having it on P4 with Day "CBA" pedals makes it available in both E9/B6 modes.
[tab] "C" "B" "A" P4 ... "E" "F"
1
2
3 G# +A
4 E ++F# -D# +F
5 B ++C# ++C#
6 G# +A ++A#
7 F#
8 E -D# +F
... [/tab]
Also in this configuration, using "A" and P4 together gives you the B6th equivalent of C6th P7. Very cool.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 19 Dec 2021 9:57 am

I think that most of the difference in Day vs. Emmons advocates is seriously influenced by the name "Emmons". Let's not kid ourselves, literally thousands of players set out to copy Buddy Emmons, and scant few copy Jimmy Day. Were it not for that legendary name, I think ergonomics would easily win out, and the Day vs. Emmons numbers would be reversed.

Skip Edwards · Post by **Skip Edwards** » 19 Dec 2021 10:02 am

If some one moves the peddles, And does not reverse the knee levers, It is a real odd duck.

JayDee and Lloyd both do that...only opposite. Pedals are Emmons, but left leg KL's are Day. It's fairly easy to rock off your A pedal and hit your LL knee lever to lower your E's, but the A pedal/F lever LR is kind of a tough move to make.

Michael Sawyer · Post by **Michael Sawyer** » 19 Dec 2021 10:59 am

I tried both ways,but an old severe left ankle injury made Day the only option.
My knee levers- rights raise,lefts lower,both sides.

Brendan Mitchell · Post by **Brendan Mitchell** » 19 Dec 2021 4:03 pm

I have played Emmons from the start but starting to think I should have gone the Day route . Only because it makes more sense to roll my ankle in rather than out . This was not a problem in younger days but is becoming one now . So I'm thinking of changing one over to see how I handle the change .

Ron Pruter · Post by **Ron Pruter** » 21 Dec 2021 6:22 pm

Brendan, be sure to let us know how that goes

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 21 Dec 2021 6:36 pm

Some professional players use one while others use the opposite. Pick one and stick with it. Don't be doubting your decision. You got to go both ways anyhow.

I wonder if piano and pedal harp players have these debates in their respective groups.

Tom Jordan · Post by **Tom Jordan** » 21 Dec 2021 6:55 pm

Our bodies change and I’ve been considering switching to the “Day” setup. I don’t worry about muscle memory and am conscious of differing pedal/knee arrangements on different steels…mind over matter.

I’ve experimented (it’s free

) by playing a/b stuff on the b/c pedals (just don’t pick the E/4th string. I gotta say, my ankle is liking it! The knees will take some more experimenting.

Tom

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 22 Dec 2021 6:30 am

meh... Not sure I buy the "ankle rocks to the left" theory.. I guess thats true for some, but for me it goes naturally to the right... Perhaps I am just confusing muscle memory with natural movement, but I dunno, I could never see myself playing a Day setup... I have had one or two through here over the years, and within 2 seconds of unboxing was on my back,underneath, attacking them with Allen wrenches.

Chris Templeton · Post by **Chris Templeton** » 22 Dec 2021 6:41 am

For those who don't know the history of The two setups, The A and B pedal changes used to be on one pedal and when Buddy split the pedals, he told Jimmy about it on the phone, but didn't say what pedals did what and Emmy did the reverse.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 22 Dec 2021 10:53 am

Bob Carlucci wrote:meh... Not sure I buy the "ankle rocks to the left" theory..

I'm never sure what people mean by that theory. What move are you referring to? If you say it "makes more sense to roll my ankle x direction", do you mean to press a pedal or to release a pedal? Which pedal?
With the foot positioned over both pedals, there are eight possible ankle moves:

A
B
A > AB
AB > A
AB > B
B > AB
A > B
B > A

Pressing and releasing A alone or B alone both happen frequently, probably roughly equally.
A > B and B > A both require rocking from one "extreme" to the other, so they're a wash. Anyway, I suspect that going from either pedal alone to the other pedal alone are likely the least common moves.
Of the other four moves, two call for rocking one way, and the other two rock the other way. Put differently, two call for going from rocked to un-rocked, and two go from un-rocked to rocked. I think these moves are pretty evenly distributed in the flow of E9 playing. So to me ergonomics don't really justify a preference in Emmons vs. Day. JMHO.

Chris Templeton · Post by **Chris Templeton** » 22 Dec 2021 11:05 am

Speaking of ankles, I heard a story of Buddy jumping out a hotel window, back in the day (no pun intended), and breaking both ankles.
Anybody know it?

Johnny Cox · Post by **Johnny Cox** » 22 Dec 2021 4:53 pm

Skip Edwards wrote:
If some one moves the peddles, And does not reverse the knee levers, It is a real odd duck.
JayDee and Lloyd both do that...only opposite. Pedals are Emmons, but left leg KL's are Day. It's fairly easy to rock off your A pedal and hit your LL knee lever to lower your E's, but the A pedal/F lever LR is kind of a tough move to make.

Jay Dee does but Lloyd lowers his 8th string E only on RKR. I ask him once why his E raises were on LKR. He said it was the spot that was open. He had RKR RKL and LKL. He just added it, got used to it and never moved it.
I also agree that were it not for the name most players would have been Day. Hal Rugg, Weldon Myrick, John Hughey, Stu Basore, Curly Chalker and many others from the late 50s, early 60s era went Day.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 23 Dec 2021 7:33 am

Brendan Mitchell wrote:I have played Emmons from the start but starting to think I should have gone the Day route . Only because it makes more sense to roll my ankle in rather than out . This was not a problem in younger days but is becoming one now . So I'm thinking of changing one over to see how I handle the change .

To try out the Day pedals, just back off the 4th string nylon tuner on the C pedal. Now your C pedal works like the A pedal on a Day setup (minus the raise on string 10).

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 23 Dec 2021 8:04 am

Johnny Cox wrote:
Skip Edwards wrote:
If some one moves the peddles, And does not reverse the knee levers, It is a real odd duck.
JayDee and Lloyd both do that...only opposite. Pedals are Emmons, but left leg KL's are Day. It's fairly easy to rock off your A pedal and hit your LL knee lever to lower your E's, but the A pedal/F lever LR is kind of a tough move to make.
Jay Dee does but Lloyd lowers his 8th string E only on RKR. I ask him once why his E raises were on LKR. He said it was the spot that was open. He had RKR RKL and LKL. He just added it, got used to it and never moved it.
I also agree that were it not for the name most players would have been Day. Hal Rugg, Weldon Myrick, John Hughey, Stu Basore, Curly Chalker and many others from the late 50s, early 60s era went Day.

The name had a lot to do with it. And the fact that builders automatically set up new guitars with the Emmons setup. When I bought my first guitar, I had never even heard of Jimmy Day. I had a tech in San Francisco add 3 left knee levers to my ZB S10, and he was a Day player. He let me try out his ZB and before I left, I told him to change my guitar to Day. That was probably 48 years ago. I don't think it took me more than a week or two to get used to the change. Players shouldn't let the fear of not being able to get used to the switch stop them if they think they want to change over. As I stated above, just back off the 4th string nylon tuner on the C pedal and you have a Day A pedal to the right of the B pedal. That should give them an idea if the change will work for them without them having to re-rod their guitar. The ankle bends are the main concern in the changeover. And seeing as how both left and right ankle bends are required in the Emmons setup too, they should be able to adapt fairly quickly. Hitting the correct knee levers just takes remembering where the changes are that you want.

Jim Cooley · Post by **Jim Cooley** » 23 Dec 2021 5:26 pm

It's whatever works best for you. Volumes of great music have been made either way. Unless there is a noticeable issue with rolling the ankle the opposite direction, Day makes a lot of sense to me. It puts the A & B pedals, the ones most used, closer to the player. We don't have to reach as far for them.

I started out playing Day because that's the way my first steel was set up. I switched to Emmons after a while for a couple of reasons that seemed logical at the time. I bought a steel with Emmons setup last year. It took me a couple of hours to adjust. After a day or three, I went sat behind the Emmons-setup steel again. I immediately started playing Day. It took about an hour to adjust back again. I still think about switching back to Day.

A famous philosopher might have said it best: "Baseball is ninety percent mental. The other half is physical" -Yogi Berra-