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Emmons push pull springs?
Posted: 25 Sep 2021 5:35 am
by Johnie King
A better place too attach the springs :: that hold the part of the changer part that rest
against the wood body on a push pull. For better leverage an less spring tension.?
Problem is there's no good place too attached a spring where the red circle is.
Mike an Wayne y'all make a good point.
The lower push on the same plan with spring makes a good point.
Push pull
Posted: 25 Sep 2021 11:34 am
by Wayne Baker
Look man, them push pulls are junk. Why not just send it to me and I'll take care of it...
Re: Emmons push pull springs?
Posted: 25 Sep 2021 11:49 am
by Mike DiAlesandro
Johnie King wrote:A better place too attach the springs :: that hold the part of the changer part that rest
against the wood body on a push pull. For better leverage an less spring tension.?
Problem is there's no good place too attached a spring where the red circle is.
It looks like the return spring on that particular string could be adjusted to hold it with the proper spring tension, it appears out of adjustment.
I do see what you are getting at, but I think the concept was to have the springs tension on the same plane as the rod lowering the lower section of the finger?
I'm guessing it was done that way to eliminate any unbalanced torque on the finger.
My best guess
Posted: 30 Sep 2021 11:14 am
by Mike Scaggs
TIP: Take a flathead screwdriver and grind a slot in the side of it. You can use that to grab each spring while you adjust the collar and it will never slip.
Make springs way over tight then string the guitar and tune to pitch. Now, ease each spring slowly till the finger begins to move off the body and stop. Now tighten back 1/4" and set the collar. This is a great starting place. The strings that never lower you can make those springs tight, or at least nice and snug.
Now, once you start tuning the guitar out at the end pay close attention that the fingers returns tight to the body. If not tighten the return spring just enough to get a solid return but not too tight or the action will suffer.
Note, make sure the changer is VERY clean along with the axle. I personally polish the fingers inside where they rub each other and also pay special attention to the inside of each finger where it wraps around the axle. Axle should also be polished mirror like and of course lubed with your favorite oils (not too much)(no WD40
Cheers and make it fun
Mike
Posted: 2 Oct 2021 1:28 pm
by Larry Behm
You only need Enough spring tension to hold it in place. You could also screw the lowering screw in to push the finger up against the body, no spring needed.
Posted: 2 Oct 2021 1:32 pm
by Johnie King
Your right Larry but it seems a lot of spring pressure to hold the lowering mechanism touching the wood . There's some room for improvement maybe maybe not.
The GS student model has shorter fingers than the E9th pro model push pull that's part of the problem.
Posted: 2 Oct 2021 1:44 pm
by Kelcey ONeil
It's the LEVERAGE of the spring against the finger that matters, not the spring tension itself. Attaching the spring closer to the end of the finger would require less spring tension, but would also require more force to overcome it. In fact, it would make the action stiffer in this way because the spring would have more leverage against the finger than the rod pushing against it, not to mention having springs at all angles would be in the way of every other rod on the guitar. The original design allows for greater leverage for the pushrod, thus reducing the effort required to overcome the spring; perceived stiffness in any standard change is due setup or hardware issues.
Posted: 2 Oct 2021 2:35 pm
by Larry Behm
If there are no changes on the string up or down then leverage is not an issue, yes?
Posted: 2 Oct 2021 9:11 pm
by Johnie King
Short. changer fingers on the GS model
Short changer fingers on the S 10 pro model
Make for stiffer pedal an knee lever action..
No mater who sets them up.
Just a flawed design that for some reason was never addressed.
Yes the GS an s10 are very good steels even though the Emmons's company continued too build the same flawed Gs an s10 pro model steel from the first one too the last.
Posted: 2 Oct 2021 10:54 pm
by Johnie King
Kelcey ONeil wrote:It's the LEVERAGE of the spring against the finger that matters, not the spring tension itself. Attaching the spring closer to the end of the finger would require less spring tension, but would also require more force to overcome it. In fact, it would make the action stiffer in this way because the spring would have more leverage against the finger than the rod pushing against it, not to mention having springs at all angles would be in the way of every other rod on the guitar. The original design allows for greater leverage for the pushrod, thus reducing the effort required to overcome the spring; perceived stiffness in any standard change is due setup or hardware issues.
Posted: 2 Oct 2021 11:15 pm
by Johnie King
Very good idea Mike thanks. Sounds like a good plan for sure.
Posted: 2 Oct 2021 11:28 pm
by richard burton
On my PushPull I lower the wound sixth string a full tone, which is a lot of travel for the return spring. The effort required to activate this lower increases as the finger progresses to its stop.
This is because the spring has increased in length (say 10 per cent)
I rejigged the sixth string mechanism, and installed a much longer spring, which reduced the percentage increase considerably, thus making it much easier to activate the lower
See my reply on
THIS POST for more information on return springs
Posted: 2 Oct 2021 11:33 pm
by Johnie King
Cool Richard a fertile open mind an idea an bam problem solved. Congratulations
An thanks for the Tip!!!
Posted: 3 Oct 2021 12:11 am
by Johnie King
Very good a good Man using his thinking cap to solve a pesky problem!!!
richard burton wrote:On my PushPull I lower the wound sixth string a full tone, which is a lot of travel for the return spring. The effort required to activate this lower increases as the finger progresses to its stop.
This is because the spring has increased in length (say 10 per cent)
I rejigged the sixth string mechanism, and installed a much longer spring, which reduced the percentage increase considerably, thus making it much easier to activate the lower
See my reply on
THIS POST for more information on return springs
Posted: 3 Oct 2021 4:11 am
by Kelcey ONeil
Johnie King wrote:Short. changer fingers on the GS model
Short changer fingers on the S 10 pro model
Make for stiffer pedal an knee lever action..
No mater who sets them up.
Just a flawed design that for some reason was never addressed.
Yes the GS an s10 are very good steels even though the Emmons's company continued too build the same flawed Gs an s10 pro model steel from the first one too the last.
Johnie,
I meant no offense by my post, I've found in my research that the smallest of tweaks can make an appreciable difference. The GS10 changer is indeed a full 3/4" shorter than the E9 changer and presents a shorter, stiffer geometry. The raises are most affected by this, and the pin on the pedals was moved from 2" from the axle to 1 3/8" to help counterbalance this and provide similar action to other models. The lowers are less affected by the difference because you're dealing with overcoming spring tension rather than string tension, and as stated before the spring and push rod are on the same plane, so their leverage relative to one another stays basically the same. The next time Pat Lyons is around, maybe check out his GS10 and see how it stacks up.
Optional Design
Posted: 3 Oct 2021 5:35 am
by Mike DiAlesandro
Lots of great ideas here.
I had the thought that instead of a collar to set the tension on the return springs via the rod, is there any reason the rods couldn't be threaded, and have an adjustment nut on it, as opposed to the collar?
It seems this would make fine tuning the spring tension much easier. I imagine this could be primarily done before the lowering rods are installed, so access to the adjustments nuts would be easier to acquire.
Interested in others opinions, and I wouldn't be surprised if this hasn't already been done. Clem Schmitz comes to mind...
Posted: 3 Oct 2021 7:06 am
by Johnie King
Mike that's cool idea on a way too get just the right amount of tension not too much tension just the right amount too bring the lowering mechanism back too the PP
wood body. An no small locking collars too come lose or slip
You know with a open mind an
Over 20,000 forum members with ideas like yours wow y'all may solve some issues with
Our old push pulls..
Posted: 3 Oct 2021 6:20 pm
by Johnie King
ALL PULL PUSH PULL
Here's a Longhorn keyless all pull push pull made by Jim Flynn
Playability is top notch
An the tone reminds me of a good push pull.
This steel is chocked full of ingenious Ideas see if you can find a few ~~~ for starters do you
See Any heavy duty springs. high tension springs?
