The Steel Guitar Forum

I am beginning my quest of purchasing my first pedal steel guitar. There is a lot of advice out there, but I don't believe my situation is typical, so I am asking for some experienced opinions here.

My background:

-- I am a pretty adept six string player -- I have been playing for a very long time, and I can play most anything I hear, if I work on it, except for the lightning fast stuff (like Steve Vai, Trey Hensley, Cody Kilby)
-- My tastes are progressive rock / blues based, with some bluegrass mixed in. My use for a pedal steel would be to play only lead lines, and maybe an occasional background rhythm part. Think somewhere between Robert Randolph, Teach Your Children, or something you might hear in an Eagles song. I don't ever see myself trying to play full songs (chords and melody) solo on a pedal steel -- that would be great, but I don't see myself having the time to learn how to do that. Even my six string playing is very ensemble-based, not solo.
-- I have a six string lap steel I haven't been playing very long, but I can play acceptably well -- mostly blues based lead lines, an occasional background rhythm part. Tuned to an open E chord (like Derek Trucks or Duane Allman).
-- Likewise for a Beard square neck dobro -- tuned to an open E, not the standard bluegrass open G (which I could do, though, if I worked on it more)
-- I haven't been able to conquer right hand finger blocking when wearing finger picks, so I play (successfully) with my bare fingers, and that may never change.
-- I use a dobro style slide, with the concave sides (like Robert Randolph) -- I don't think I would like the traditional pedal steel circular slide -- don't know if I could get a good enough grip / control.
-- I don't do single coil pickups -- hate the hum.
-- I tend towards high quality gear -- Heritage, Taylor, Larivee guitars, Mesa Boogie and Fender tubes amps, etc. My time is the most scarce resource, so I don't like to have to deal with gear issues, or be held back by gear limitations. I will spend the extra dough to make the experience easier, more reliable, or sound better.
-- When getting into something new, if I think I am in it for the long run, I tend to buy what I eventually want first, rather than things I think I will eventually outgrow. In the long run, I think that saves time and money. I feel confident that I will stick with pedal steel, and get reasonably good at it (within my intended use).
-- Things that are important to me in an instrument -- tone, playability, tone, reliability (no issues, mechanically or audible), maintainability and tone.
-- I have absolutely no experience with pedal steels -- I have never even seen one up close. I live in the Pittsburgh area, and I believe the closest genuine pedal steel shop is Billy Cooper's in Virginia, five hours away.
-- I would only use the guitar for recording -- very unlikely I would play it out live. I probably have about an hour a day to work with it at first, but more when I retire in a couple years.
-- I am not in any hurry -- I want to figure this out well before I make a move.

I have educated myself a bit, read what I could find -- there are a lot of different opinions out there -- but as my situation is different from most, I thought I would lay it out here, and if I haven't bored you to death already, I would appreciate some of your insights. Some things I think I think so far, and some questions:

-- Given my intended use, it seems like the configuration that would work best for me is a U12 -- or would I be better off with a D10?
-- How hard is it to set up a custom tuning? If I could set up whatever tuning I like, maybe I could get away with an SD-10?
-- How important is the armrest? -- it seems like it would be helpful, but does it get in the way, or make the strings too far away?
-- It seems the safest bet (not having the chance to hear a lot of guitars side by side) is a Mullen -- everyone raves about their tone and construction, etc.
-- I've read enough to believe that I should skip past the student models, so that means either a Royal Precision or a G2 Mullen.
Their differences are documented: https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtop ... d3dbf0900d
but I don't know how to translate those differences into my experience. Would I benefit from the higher end model, or not even notice the difference?
-- How much of a given pedal steel's tone comes from the pickups, and how much from the construction / materials?
-- It seems that the volume pedal you want is the Telonics. Maybe the same for the pickup too.
-- I don't believe there is anyone in my area that works on pedal steels. If I have good mechanical skills, is it reasonable to think I can maintain one myself?
-- I can't see myself buying a guitar sight unseen (unless maybe from a reputable dealer) -- but I don't know how to evaluate a used one -- what should I look for / avoid?
-- Am I being nuts / stupid in considering something like a Mullen Royal Precision or G2 as my first purchase?
-- What else do I need to think about?

I know this is long winded -- thank you for your patience and your opinions.
-- MK

Spending a hands-on day in a pedal steel shop like Cooper's will give you more information than dozens of responses from other forumites. String spacing, deck height, pedal action, pad or no pad, scale length, many variables must be felt to be appreciated. (just my opinion)

If all you want is a little bit of pedal-bending sound on your recordings, you might be ahead of the game to put a Certano bender on your lap steel. Or, to seek out a Duesenberg bender guitar. You can find some great examples by searching out Luke Cyrus Goetz on YouTube.

Michael Kristofic wrote:How much of a given pedal steel's tone comes from the pickups, and how much from the construction / materials?

Some, but it mostly comes from the player who really needs to use the appropriate picks and bar to get that distinctive pedal steel sound, otherwise the whole exercise could be a disappointment to you. Pick blocking is not essential, but a circular bar is. Yes, at first it feels like a bar of soap but we all get used to it and you need the weight and the round nose.

Retirement will be a big help, as you'll need a fair bit of time. I had an instrument for 20 years while I was still working and got nowhere. Since retiring, I've been playing seriously for 8 years and it's coming together. You might be quicker than me - I'm just highlighting the difference between no time and plenty

I would suggest you find a teacher who could walk through you questions and let you sit behind a pedal steel. There are several forumites in Philly, i believe Jim Fogarty does lessons for example.

D Schubert wrote:Spending a hands-on day in a pedal steel shop like Cooper's will give you more information than dozens of responses from other forumites. String spacing, deck height, pedal action, pad or no pad, scale length, many variables must be felt to be appreciated. (just my opinion)

If all you want is a little bit of pedal-bending sound on your recordings, you might be ahead of the game to put a Certano bender on your lap steel. Or, to seek out a Duesenberg bender guitar. You can find some great examples by searching out Luke Cyrus Goetz on YouTube.

Great advice -- these are the things I need to know, that I would not have thought about myself! I will try to make a trip to Billy Cooper's this fall. Not sure what all brands he carries, though. The Certano bender is an interesting idea, but I think I'm looking for more. I think I need a real pedal steel to get that Robert Randolph thing going. It seems to me that one of the major functions of a pedal steel is to be able to change the tuning on the fly with the pedals and levers -- which is necessary when your "fretting" hand is essentially a straight line. I also know about the Dusenbergs -- I imagine they are nice guitars, but I'm not a fan -- I bend a lot on a six string, and they are long (fender) scale, which makes bending harder. I'm a short (gibson) scale guy.

Ian Rae wrote:

Michael Kristofic wrote:How much of a given pedal steel's tone comes from the pickups, and how much from the construction / materials?

Some, but it mostly comes from the player who really needs to use the appropriate picks and bar to get that distinctive pedal steel sound, otherwise the whole exercise could be a disappointment to you. Pick blocking is not essential, but a circular bar is. Yes, at first it feels like a bar of soap but we all get used to it and you need the weight and the round nose.

Retirement will be a big help, as you'll need a fair bit of time. I had an instrument for 20 years while I was still working and got nowhere. Since retiring, I've been playing seriously for 8 years and it's coming together. You might be quicker than me - I'm just highlighting the difference between no time and plenty

I will try a circular bar when I go to Billy Cooper's, but I still need to be sold on it. I understand the weight thing -- I have that on my lap steel. I have seen some sacred steel players use concave bars, and you can get extra heavy ones. We'll see -- thanks for the insights!

Scott Swartz wrote:I would suggest you find a teacher who could walk through you questions and let you sit behind a pedal steel. There are several forumites in Philly, i believe Jim Fogarty does lessons for example.

It would be great to take at least few lessons, but the pedal steel presence in Pittsburgh is almost non-existent, as far as I can tell. Maybe I can find someone with an ad on CL, or spend some extra time when I visit Billy Cooper's. And Pittsburgh is a few hundred miles from Philly . . .

Michael Kristofic wrote: but the pedal steel presence in Pittsburgh is .. .

click on Members above, enter Pittsburgh, 20 names, some not active but a lot are. Can also talk to Mike diAlesandro and Rick Troyer in Ohio, both forum members are steel dealers

somewhat similar thread (get that buyer's guide from John McClung and consider lessons with him)

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=353398

Gene Tani wrote:

Michael Kristofic wrote: but the pedal steel presence in Pittsburgh is .. .

click on Members above, enter Pittsburgh, 20 names, some not active but a lot are. Can also talk to Mike diAlesandro and Rick Troyer in Ohio, both forum members are steel dealers

somewhat similar thread (get that buyer's guide from John McClung and consider lessons with him)

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=353398

Thanks for the references -- I will definitely follow up. I hadn't thought about doing a member search.

Call Jimmie he's builds very good pedal steels. An the wait time is very reasonable an he also stocks a few 0f his new steels.

I own a lefty SD10 Mullen G2 with 4 pedals and 5 levers and it is the best steel I have owned out of about 8 in my lifetime (playability and tonewise). It is all that I need, and I play out regularly on this instrument alone.

I suggest you choose a passive volume pedal over a digital for tone purposes. I played on a Hilton digital for years, and when I switched to Goodrich, my tone and feel improved a lot.

I also suggest using a Peterson strobe tuner and start with SE9 sweetened tempered setting.

Good luck with your endeavors!
Stephen

On the technical end, the tone comes mostly from the instrument itself, with the pickup only further shaping the tone from there. Many may disagree, but there are guitars that are dogs no matter what pickup is installed, and there are others that sound good regardless of the pup. The main thing is to find something that gets in the way of your sound as little as possible, and sounds at least okay regardless of accessories, EQ, etc… if you have to really work to get your sound somethings missing.

As for setup, a basic E9 SD10(single neck with arm pad) would probably be ideal, as I don’t know the first person that prefers the ergonomics of an S10(single neck no pad); however, quite a few guitar players prefer a universal tuning as it seems more intuitive to some. The standard E9 setup would probably get you up and running quicker than anything else, and is simpler to tune and maintain. I’m gonna go out on a limb here, but you may have a look at Sneaky Pete Kleinows B6 tuning in regard to the specific style you wish to play, it’s very guitar player friendly and is even suitable for certain “rhythm” applications. Again, his tone was produced on an old Fender 400, and can be heard with the Flying Burrito Brothers and many other west coast types. I know his was an 8 string guitar, but it has been adapted to 10 strings without much hassle.

As for the guitar itself and the rest of the gear, try to keep it simple as possible: the less moving parts, the quicker you get your music out of you and through the instrument, and the more time you’ll save and the better you’ll sound. You’d probably be better off with a round bar, you may consider an EZEE slide bar if grip is your main consideration. I’m liable to be tarred and feathered for this lol, but if you have a VP you like for guitar, it should do pretty well for steel too. I think the old pot pedals are best if the original style pot is still good, new ones are hit and miss at best it seems. Active pedals seem too flat to my ears, but that’s just my opinion.

As for trying one out, you may consider Hummingbird Music in Sugar Creek, Ohio, should be a lot closer than Virginia lol. I’d strongly advise actually playing the instrument you buy, tone and feel are personal tastes that should be experienced for yourself.

Good advice -- I want to thank all of you for taking the time. I have refined my thinking a bit, and now I have some more detailed questions. Keeping in mind the style of music I am trying to play (rock n roll / blues-ish) . . .

1) How important are splits and how many of them do you need?

2) How significant is it to have 3 lowers as opposed to just two, for an 10 string E9 or a U12?

3) How hard is it to change your copedent? I know there are standards ones, but looking around, there seem to be a lot of variations.

4) How important are gauged string rollers (resulting in all the strings being level)?

Also -- I was able to get together with someone in my area (Pittsburgh) who is a very experienced, very knowledgeable player.

Thanks again for your input.

Lots of good info here above.

If I could break it down, for a new player:

1)Buy the best new or newish guitar you can afford.
2)Stick to standard E9/C6 D-10 (UNI if you must)
3)Start with the basics and practice practice practice.

To expand on the above, you can't go wrong with something like a Mullen or a GFI or Emmons LeGrande, or Rittenberry, Rains, Desert Rose, whatever. Modern and all pull.. Something newish and properly set up. Save vintage of basket cases for later. The best guitar I ever had was a Mullen Royal Precision. Sound, ease of play, stability, tuning, you name it.

PSG is complex enough. Not hard, but kind of complex. Stick to standard tunings, most if not all the instructional material will be for E9/C6, and some Uni. Most of the songs you want to play will be in these tunings. All guitars will be set up with some variation of the above. Most people go with an Emmons E9/C6. That's a good idea.

Start with stuff like scales, basic grips, pick blocking. of course, you gotta mix in the fun stuff too. I used to do some exercises, scales, technique practice, then play songs until I was ready to stop for the day. A metronome is a great thing to have.

The two most common E9 splits, G note on string 6 and C note on string 5 are both very useful for blues line with dominant 7 tones. The C note on string 5 gives the pedals down minor chord however it also gives a very handy root plus dominant 7 scale two frets up. Example play A pedals up at fret 5 and if you go to fret 7 and engage AB pedals plus the split and yes you get an E minor triad but there is also an A7 scale with string 9 as the root and the dominant 7 on string 5. I personally use this position a ton and its one reason I consider splits to be critical.

I do use triple lower on string 2 for a particular thing but I could easily live with double lower, at least on 10 string, probably more critical for U12.

Most all pulls are easy to change so as long as you go that way probably not much difference in selecting a particular steel. If you think you want to experiment with setups you probably don't want a push pull for a first steel although they have a great iconic tone. Also no or difficult splits on a p/p which is why I semi releuctantly sold mine.

I would recommend staying with a standard E9 setup for a while, and if you really see a move you want after having a good understanding of the standard E9 then make the changes. Its also a game of you have to give something up to get a new thing so you you want to do that from an informed standpoint.

Gauged string rollers are nice on the low frets but I wouldn't pass on a steel that I really liked otherwise because of it.

Michael Kristofic wrote:Good advice -- I want to thank all of you for taking the time. I have refined my thinking a bit, and now I have some more detailed questions. Keeping in mind the style of music I am trying to play (rock n roll / blues-ish) . . .

1) How important are splits and how many of them do you need?

I use the split on the 5th and 6th strings all the time, mostly for minor and 7th chords. I have the 4th string split set up but I never use it.

Michael Kristofic wrote:2) How significant is it to have 3 lowers as opposed to just two, for an 10 string E9 or a U12?

I fool with copedents a lot, and the only time I've needed 3 lowers is on a U12 tuned E9/B6 (not mine, btw).

Michael Kristofic wrote:3) How hard is it to change your copedent? I know there are standards ones, but looking around, there seem to be a lot of variations.

It depends on the brand and model. Some are easy, some are very hard.

Michael Kristofic wrote:4) How important are gauged string rollers (resulting in all the strings being level)?

I only notice the difference on the first 3 frets. You have to press down harder.

Michael Kristofic wrote:Also -- I was able to get together with someone in my area (Pittsburgh) who is a very experienced, very knowledgeable player.

The tri-state area has a lot of steel players. I grew up there.

Since you are already a 6 string player. I suggest, Get a Mel Bay E9th Steel Guitar Chord Chart. B0B sells them here in the forum store, Or google on internet.
You can take your 6 string knowledge and transpose the chords to the E9th steel neck. Best 7 or 8 dollars you can invest in learning Minor, Major, 7th, Diminish, Augmented chords, Using pedals and knee levers, To make chords on the E 9th neck.
Good Luck on your steel guitar journey, Happy Steelin.

your cart is way out in front of the horse !

My take, grab a single 10 (E9th) with 3 and 4 and begin the journey. Just like MANY others if not MOST did.

There is a reason you should begin on a S10 , standard Emmons tuning , its because it is compatible with well over 75 % of the players that you are asking questions to as well as instructional material. Everyone will be on the same page.

Once you get acclimated to a Single 10 and the nuances of playing this instrument THEN proceed to the next level of choice, D10 , S12 Uni, with splits etc...

Trying to determine which brand is BEST before you even see one is overthinking at this point. Whichever quality brand you come home with, for the 1st 6 months ( or longer) when you sit , practice, study or play, you will send your family and pets to a far off place. Then pray they return. LOL

Study the standard Emmons E9th tuning, get your knees, legs, feet, eyes , hands , fingers and brain to respond in kind. Don't skip step one , which is the primer. All of there steps I mention are consistent and common with EVERY Pedal Steel player. Nobody bypasses these steps.

As a long time player and former teacher, I recommend grabbing a quality S10, 3 Peds and at least 4 levers , a quality V-Pedal , a comfortable seat and get started. Also, get a nice 10 string rounded bar, the Stevens Dobro bar is a detriment to a new player. The rounded bar makes it "POSSIBLE" to move across the neck without getting stuck on a string, that's why we use ROUNDED bars, they glide across the neck. Why is this important ? because the Steel tunings use basic string grips and intervals across the neck. We MOVE the bar , not just up and down but across the fretboard. String grips across the neck are pretty much lesson 1. You can't do it with a Stevens Dobro bar with an edge. If you don't get acclimated to the standard string grips and intervals ACROSS the neck, you will be stuck in the beginner category for years.

worry about advanced tunings, double lowers, raises , splits etc.. later on in life.

This is my take based on your initial post.

Go for it, but start at the beginning,

best to you

tp

Tony Prior, we could use a LIKE button for responses like that one.

What Tony said ! You have a long way to go and there are no short cuts. You are basing your concerns and assumptions on things you have read on the internet which only goes so far before it becomes foolish.

Feel free to get in touch and we can do a quick skype conversation to clarify or dispel information.

Bob

Michael and y'all: here's a direct link to the column I wrote a few years back for the SWSGA newsletter, just about everything you might want to consider when evaluating new steels.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fhiekxsdlhekf ... l.pdf?dl=0

One advanced aspect I didn't cover: as your skill and knowledge expand, you may want more and more levers and pedals, and that's where you can bump into the limits of 3Raise/3Lower changers most builders use. I routinely need 4 raises on string 5, and sometimes on string 1, so I've outgrown most brands except modern MSA's, Williams, and Excel. I play extended E9, by the way, with at least 5 pedals and up to 7 levers. My "needs" are unique, and most players won't hit this limitation anytime soon.

Good luck with your shopping!

John McClung wrote:....
One advanced aspect I didn't cover: as your skill and knowledge expand, you may want more and more levers and pedals, and that's where you can bump into the limits of 3Raise/3Lower changers most builders use....

Or as your skill and knowledge expand you will find you need less and less levers and pedals !

Bob Hoffnar wrote:

John McClung wrote:....
One advanced aspect I didn't cover: as your skill and knowledge expand, you may want more and more levers and pedals, and that's where you can bump into the limits of 3Raise/3Lower changers most builders use....

Or as your skill and knowledge expand you will find you need less and less levers and pedals !

I'm basically where Buddy was on his final steel, his Zumsteel D-10, with 3+7 on his E9. But I get your point, Bob, and if less is more, I'd be fine, but over the years I've grown to love more and more changes, thus the escalation and viewpoint that More is More. I keep wishing for one more knee, but can't see that happening anytime soon!

Tony is 100% spot on. We do need a like button here. Don't get ahead of yourself before you set down behind one of these animals. I don't care how good a guitar or other stringed instrument player you are this thing takes a lot of practice time. You have to be dedicated to spending the hours and hours it takes to get you to where you want to be. Take Paul Franklin's beginner course if you can't find a teacher. Find Jeff Newman's up from the top series and minor chord connection books and video's and work on them every day and when you feel confident that you know and can do every thing their you move on to Joe Wright. Watch some of Joe's youtube video's from some of his seminars some are long but you can get an ide to what you are up against. Remember the right hand is where it is at. This is my 2cents but in parting I offer this advice, find shoes and pants you can feel and play in. I started playing in socks or bare feet now shoes hamper the pedal feel and kind of throw me off. Now I move on to the pants, all my practice has been done in my under ware and pants hinder the feel of the knee levers on my leg which can throw me off. Loose shorts will work for me but the shoes are a problem. Practice practice practice and then practice some more. It don't happen in a few weekends.

If you have not seen this chart linked below, you may find it helpful.
It shows all the chords you can get with various pedal/lever/string/fret combinations.
FYI,
Pete

http://www.cryinsteel.com/download.html