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D13th S12
Posted: 30 Jul 2021 2:32 pm
by Johnny Cox
On and off for the past 15 years or so I've been working on the ultimate universal tuning. As I've stated before I don't like the idea of having to think and E9/B6 or Bb/Eb. To me thinking and one tuning only is the best way to go. With so many of the new players and even some of the older guys getting away from C6th altogether I think this is the best of all worlds. Here is my latest version with 6 floor pedals and 6 knee levers. With this tuning no knee lever locks are needed, no holding a knee lever to play C6th type things and no thinking in two keys.
Update: 08/03/2021
This is the latest edit to my tuning. After looking at all the variations this is the most logical and musical to me. I hope a young steel player will pick this up and carry it forward. If I had done this 30 years ago no telling where it would be today. But that was when everyone told me I couldn't do my own thing. This tuning could and should be the future of pedal steel.
Note:
*Ds to Es splits with Ds to Db, LKR & RKL.
*7th string F# LKLI splits with P1
*11th string P4 tunes to Ab with RKR engaged
*8th string E should have a compensator on P2.
Tunable splits are a must for this tuning.
Posted: 30 Jul 2021 2:46 pm
by Andrew Goulet
Thanks, Johnny! I play a simplified version of your D13 copedent and it's everything I need right there. Perfect for a band that switches between classic country, western swing, blues, and rock.
Posted: 31 Jul 2021 3:44 pm
by Darren Mortillaro
Hi Johnny, can you help walk me through this setup? I'm looking to expand beyond the S10 E9.
Posted: 31 Jul 2021 4:21 pm
by John McClung
Following...
Posted: 31 Jul 2021 5:08 pm
by gary pierce
Posted: 31 Jul 2021 5:36 pm
by Greg Cutshaw
Here's my 20 minute take on this and by no means complete. A similar chart converting the whole copedant to open C would make some non-E9th style (C6) changes more obvious.
Here's a link to the original Excel file if anyone wants to change what I've posted (clicking on link will download the Excel file):
https://www.gregcutshaw.com/Williams%20 ... pedant.xls
Here's the file in PDF format:
https://www.gregcutshaw.com/Williams%20 ... pedant.pdf
Click on the picture to enlarge it.
Posted: 31 Jul 2021 6:47 pm
by Paul Strojan
Why isn't the C6 pedal 7 in this copedent?
Posted: 31 Jul 2021 8:09 pm
by Greg Cutshaw
The original D13 versions posted listed 7 floor pedals and had pedal 6 listed with the same function as the C6 pedal 7. Perhaps there's some typos in the first post above. These copedant posts are hard to proof read and easy to goof up!
Posted: 31 Jul 2021 11:38 pm
by Darren Mortillaro
Is the tuning on any of these compensated in cents/hz like Jeff Newman's setup? I found sweetening the tuning on my E9 to make a huge difference. In Johnny Cox's youtube video above, I didn't understand it all but the intonation sounded perfect.
Also, in the video it looks like he omitted the 7th pedal.
Posted: 1 Aug 2021 5:35 am
by Roger Rettig
What a fantastic tuning! Johnny Cox - congratulations; you may have created the ultimate 12-string steel.
Luddite that I am, I'd never entertain a tuning without the standard E9 ninth D-string; this tuning still has it.
Could I even begin to assimilate such a concept after all my years on a D-10, or at my advanced age? I don't know, but it is essentially a 'Day' tuning which suits me fine.
Of course, I'd need a brand new guitar -
.
I wonder how this tuning would sound (in C6 mode) as an E-13th rather than Johnny's D-13th. Would significant warmth and depth be lost? Hmmm.
This is a real eye-opener. I also wonder how it'd take me to take that 'new 5th string' into consideration and skip it when required.
Johnny Cox - you play beautifully!!!
Posted: 1 Aug 2021 5:51 am
by Roger Rettig
PS:
I'm struggling to understand Johnny's pedal 6. Perhaps he illustrates it in his excellent video but it went by too fast for me!
Posted: 1 Aug 2021 7:29 am
by Andrew Frost
I'm struggling to understand Johnny's pedal 6. Perhaps he illustrates it in his excellent video but it went by too fast for me! Smile
Roger, I believe P6 is set up to make the B7#9, in other words what would be A7#9 w/ pedal 8 on C6. It looks like the maj3
and min3 are available in the lower part of that chord on adjacent strings which would create some options.
I like how RKR puts the whole tuning back into D6/G on the low end, with the same intervals as "standard" C6/F. Looks like there are some cool splits happening there with the diminished pedals.
Posted: 1 Aug 2021 8:13 am
by Roger Rettig
Of course - I see it now. Thanks, Andrew.
Posted: 1 Aug 2021 8:17 am
by b0b
This looks so "right" it's scary.
I'm playing a 10-string D6th with some E9th pedals, and also a 10-string D9th. For me, the biggest hurdle was switching to a D root tone, especially on songs that I'd memorized. It takes a while to get over that. I love the timbre of D tunings, though.
Posted: 1 Aug 2021 8:54 am
by Johnny Cox
Greg, this is an excellent description and I will add a couple things.
Simply put it's E9th CBA
C6th 568 floor pedals.
Pedal 7 is not needed as with RKR engaged those notes that pedal 7 gives you are on strings 1 & 2. Which also gives the low end of the C6th tuning.
As you stated LKL and LKR are standard E9th and C6th changes. One thing I do on LKL is my 4th string goes to Db before the 9th string picks up (like a half stop) then I stop the 4th string from lowering further with the split tuning screw. This allows for the 4th string to be lowered without the 9th or with it.
VKL is as you said same as lowering G - F on C6th but it's also same as lowering B - A on E9th.
VKR (left leg) is the same as Curly Chalker's two C6th vertical knees. It's a change I've had on my guitars for years. Other moves could be substituted such as lowering the 7th string and raising the 1st or others.
Also the RKL is as you explained and also same as lowering 4th string on C6th. They do not conflict.
Another note is P4 is tuned with RKR engaged mainly for string 11 to be an Ab note.
And yes you can set this up Emmons split but it's much more logical to use Day split.
Posted: 1 Aug 2021 9:02 am
by Johnny Cox
b0b wrote:This looks so "right" it's scary.
I'm playing a 10-string D6th with some E9th pedals, and also a 10-string D9th. For me, the biggest hurdle was switching to a D root tone, especially on songs that I'd memorized. It takes a while to get over that. I love the timbre of D tunings, though.
The switch to D tuning wasn't hard for me as I think in the number system. 1 is 1, 4 is 4 etc.
Posted: 1 Aug 2021 9:03 am
by Johnny Cox
Darren Mortillaro wrote:Hi Johnny, can you help walk me through this setup? I'm looking to expand beyond the S10 E9.
Check out my last entry. It's Greg Cutshaws explanation plus I expanded on it.
Posted: 1 Aug 2021 9:54 am
by Johnny Cox
Here is the setup as in the video. Looking back it makes as much sense as the current one. Either works great. Doing it this way the 1st and 2nd pedals could be either Emmons or Day yet the knee levers could stay the same.
Posted: 1 Aug 2021 10:42 am
by b0b
Johnny, why do you tune string 2 to the b7 note C instead of the Maj7 note C#? Seems to me that you could have the traditional half-stop on RKL and it would make RKR easier to push. Curious.
Posted: 1 Aug 2021 11:52 am
by Johnny Cox
b0b wrote:Johnny, why do you tune string 2 to the b7 note C instead of the Maj7 note C#? Seems to me that you could have the traditional half-stop on RKL and it would make RKR easier to push. Curious.
Bob, first of all I don't like half stops. Secondly when playing E9th type stuff generally use that string more as the 7th and finally I like having the maj7th when I have that knee lever engaged in a more C6th mode.
Posted: 1 Aug 2021 12:00 pm
by Johnny Cox
Johnny Cox wrote:
Greg, this is an excellent description and I will add a couple things.
Simply put it's E9th CBA
C6th 568 floor pedals.
Pedal 7 is not needed as with RKR engaged those notes that pedal 7 gives you are on strings 1 & 2. Which also gives the low end of the C6th tuning.
As you stated LKL and LKR are standard E9th and C6th changes. One thing I do on LKL is my 4th string goes to Db before the 9th string picks up (like a half stop) then I stop the 4th string from lowering further with the split tuning screw. This allows for the 4th string to be lowered without the 9th or with it.
VKL is as you said same as lowering G - F on C6th but it's also same as lowering B - A on E9th.
VKR (left leg) is the same as Curly Chalker's two C6th vertical knees. It's a change I've had on my guitars for years. Other moves could be substituted such as lowering the 7th string and raising the 1st or others.
Also the RKL is as you explained and also same as lowering 4th string on C6th. They do not conflict.
Another note is P4 is tuned with RKR engaged mainly for string 11 to be an Ab note. That makes P4 same as P5 on C6th or lowering the Bs 1/2 on E9th. Not to confuse but P4 could also lower string 11 to Ab and nit use RKR but would need to add string 10 1/2 tone lower to that pedal which makes it harder. That's the main reason I do it the way it's on the chart.
And yes you can set this up Emmons split but it's much more logical to use Day split.
If it were C13th...
Posted: 1 Aug 2021 12:51 pm
by b0b
For those of us who think C6th, here's what Johnny Cox's D13th would look like if you dropped it down a step.
[tab]
C13th
<nobr>
LKL LKVL LKVR LKR P1 P2 P3 P4 P5 P6 RKL RKR
D +Eb
Bb -A +B
E +F +F +F
C -B +C# +D
A +Bb -Ab
G -F +A +A -F#
E +F -Eb
D -C#
C -B +C#
Bb -A
G +A (+F#) -E -F
C +D -A
</nobr>
Note: P4 (+F#) is tuned with RKR lowered to F
[/tab]
The left knees are mostly E9th changes, as are the first 3 pedals (CBA or "Day" setup).
RKR changes the low strings to get C6th chord voicings.
That's the magic. 
From there the inside 3 pedals are standard C6th changes.
The 4th string LKL lower is stopped by the split tuning screw before the other lower engages, so that it can be used as the C6th standard "B lever" lowering just one string. Pushing further lowers both strings, E9th-style.
LKR is a fairly standard C6th lever today. It also serves as the E9th "F lever".
LKVR is a Curly Chalker C6th invention that few players have today.
Posted: 1 Aug 2021 3:19 pm
by Johnny Cox
This might be a little more pleasing to the Emmons split guys. It eliminates the C pedal and D to D# (E to F) pedals. By using the RKL and A & B you have the C pedal.
Using RKL & LKR together with split tuning you have D to D# pedal. Vertical is the E9th raise 1 & lower 6 knee.
Pedal 3 works as half of the Franklin pedal as well as lowering G to F on C6th.
This is the same changes that a D10 8X5 would have with half the Frankli pedal on P4, all on one 12 string neck with only 6x5.
The key is having split tuning.
For me I will replace the verticle with my Chalker change as I can get the same sounds as lowering the 7th string using the RKL and moving the bar.
Below is most likely what I'll end up with. The fewer pedals the better.
Posted: 2 Aug 2021 9:23 pm
by Chuck Back
Hey Johnny Great setup I’m still playing my E 13th still the same setup as Buddy had on his single 12. I’ve been playing this tuning for the last 15 years I love it best of both worlds.
Posted: 2 Aug 2021 11:43 pm
by Dean Parks
Johnny,
1- On your above 2 copedents ("Emmons split guys" and "what I'll end up with"), there is no F-raise equivalent (previously on your LKL). Instead, you are using LKL to raise the E string equivalent up a step, to use as part of the C pedal replacement. Would you explain the choice to not have an F-raise equivalent?
2- On an early forum post, Buddy said that the one thing annoying about putting the 6th on string 5, was that when he did an A-pedal raise on string 6, the 5th string would ring in sympathetically, and he'd have to remember to block it every time he released the A-pedal. Is that something you have run into?