The Steel Guitar Forum

Suppose you are playing with experienced musicians, who all have electronic tuners. Suppose the band is playing a C chord. Supposed you have your tone bar on your E9th neck at the 8th fret--no pedals, and no knee levers engaged. Suppose you are picking strings 4,5, and 6. With some bands the C chord the band is creating makes the exact placement of the tone bar easy to hear. With many bands the C chord created buy the band makes the exact placement of the tone bar somewhat fuzzy. Meaning--I can move the tone bar forward 1/4 of an inch from the 8th fret line on the fret board, or move the tone bar back 1/4 of an inch from the 8th fret line on the fret board---I never can hear that I am in exactly the same C pitch as the band. This is over a 1/2 inch or more of bar movement!
Rarely do I get a band where the pitch is precise--in one location. I am wondering what causes this band pitch to be fuzzy in so many bands. I am guessing it may be in the difference in the different tuners individual band members are using. It also could be the bass, or guitar, not fretting out correctly as they go up the neck. It could also be the drums not being in tune. I have always suspected drummers with drum heads tuned to a clashing frequency. Or-- drummers with cymbals with a clashing frequency. It could be the bass player bending strings. Is there a simple answer, or is it a combination of all of the above. It is very frustrating when I can move my tone bar up 1/4 inch or back 1/4 of an inch and still can not get with the band frequency. This happens with most bands. Like I said, it is rare when my tone bar matches up with the band. Maybe I am lucky that I can "at least hear" it being on or off. Maybe out front the sound is together but it is very frustrating.

Keith, as a long time 6 string guitarist I can say that many players have a terrible grip on the guitar neck. This can pull the strings slightly off tune with other instruments but sound in tune with itself. Plus many guitars have a poor setup and play out of tune up the neck. Not saying that our ears and hands are any better. Maybe that's the reason we use bar shake to make it fit. My son plays drums and I can't say that has ever bothered me for in tune playing.

I don’t comment often,but, in regards to playing in tune.
One must use ears. The frets or/and fret markers on a pedal steel or any other slide instrument are merely a suggestion. I try to find the most intune instrument to play to, usually the piano. If no piano then the most intune instrument available in the band. If no instrument is intune, I trust my root note checked with a digital tuner and play by that.

+1 on the responses. You can be the flexible one- in a full band situation, maybe the 3 note C chord isn't necessary- you could stick to the 1 and/or 5- usually 3rd's are the source of the rub with a few instruments playing them simultaneously. I've run slow scales with a fiddle player pre-show to diagnose perceived tuning issues. It's frustrating- you could also just shoot daggers across the stage.

Guitar players that seldom change their strings or seldom do a setup on their guitar are likely a problem with intonation. Also, a heavy handed guitar player pushing strings sharp. If I'm working with a piano, I'm listening to the piano for pitch. Stringed instruments left in the car/van while temperature and humidity fluctuates can be in tune at the beginning of the night and by the end of the first set will be out of tune. Same situation if the temperature in the club changes. A ceiling fan above the stage gives a chorusing effect to every instrument on stage and nobody sounds in tune. If I tune my steel with E's around 442, my A/B pedals down A chord is at 440 with the piano. Can't get any closer than that. A little vibrato with the bar covers everything else.

If some one punches the wrong buttons on an electronic tuner and changes the tuning from 440 can be a disaster.

Another thing that can change played tuning of electrical instruments is Building/Stage Electric Voltage, On your amp. and other electronics in the band.
I played in one band with a key board. I would have to move a little off fret to be in tune with the key board at certain venues.

That is 1 advantage of a steel guitar, You can fudge and be in tune, As long as the guitar is in tune itself.

If you have a Multi/Voltage meter check the stage voltage, High or low voltage could be a problem.
If the stage voltage is off, Have the building owner contact the power company, The pole transformer will need changed.

When using my 8 string G6 tuned resonator in a 5 piece combo with keyboard and horns I could hear dissonance in my tuning. I switched to Just Intonation tuning from my Peterson strobe tuner and blended in. Solo that tuning sounds a little off but in context was fine. Steel guitars tuning is compensated.

I find when Guitarists use a capo without retuning, they are often sharp due to the pressure of the capo, especially if the capo is placed well behind the fret.

Tommy White wrote:I don’t comment often,but, in regards to playing in tune.
One must use ears. The frets or/and fret markers on a pedal steel or any other slide instrument are merely a suggestion. I try to find the most intune instrument to play to, usually the piano. If no piano then the most intune instrument available in the band. If no instrument is intune, I trust my root note checked with a digital tuner and play by that.

see above

we play fretless Instruments and as TW so properly states, we must adjust accordingly.

As Jeff Newman once answered this exact same equation.

" move the bar, use your ear, find the root note "

IF we are playing OPEN A tuning ( AB IN) we are most likely NOT in 440 tune. It is not uncommon for Steel players to tune to 441 or even 442 which puts OPEN A ( AB IN) relatively close to 440.

This is an oft commented on subject for sure. When I tune my guitar to itself beat free tuning the E-F change results in an F note that is roughly 25 cents flat- that will never sound in tune with bands who use straight up 440 tuners unless I roll the bar forward quite a bit when using the AF combination. This is remedied by tuning pretty much straight up 440 for all the notes (thanks Rick Schmidt)and, while the guitar itself doesn't sound all that great, in the context of the band, it sounds fine. At my shop I have a Peterson HD tuner into which I've programmed settings from players such as JayDee, Greg Leisz, Doug Livingstone, Dean Parks, etc and while all of them are vastly different- they have all played on thousands of recordings and sound perfectly in tune- leading to the fact that they have learned to play in tune. Reece Anderson once said to me- "I start the move with my eyes and end it with my ears".

I've never had this problem, maybe because of the fault-tolerant temperaments I use. E9th. C6th. Tuning to pure beatless JI can drive you crazy.

+1 on tuning to 442.5! I snagged a Jeffran College tuning chart awhile back and it's made all the difference.

Our C chord (or any other chord) can never be in tune note-for-note unless the whole band tunes to equal temperament (which is why it was invented).

Otherwise, things are indeed a bit fuzzy (to use Keith's word), which is better than the harsh reality of an ET triad searing through your brain. I make sure I'm in tune with myself and then proceed to play confidently at a pitch that feels right to me. Haven't been called out yet. I don't know how the guitarist tunes up, but he always sounds great. The bass player has a more relaxed attitude and waits for me tell him which string is out and instantly corrects it without taking the slightest offence. No keyboard, luckily.

I have to say that my ears are the best to play in tune, no matter what.... I find myself playing before the fret, on the fret or even after the fret. My ears tell me where to be.

That's obviously what Keith does, or tries to. I think he was describing a pitch that's too slippery to latch on to.

There is another thing which happens to me. Sometimes towards the end of the night it gets so loud that my sense of pitch leaves me altogether. Anyone else have problems above a certain dB level?

When things sound slightly out of tune, I try to stick to single notes. Single notes seem to blend in better when things sound out of tune. Seems to me playing two or 3 note harmonies defines tuning more. Playing chords with more than 3 notes seems to define tuning less for me.
Here is a story you may enjoy. I was playing pedal steel guitar for Bob Morris. Bob Morris is the guy who wrote "Buckaroo" for Buck Owens. Bob also wrote "Play Boy" for Wynn Stewart. In all I think Bob wrote around 87 chart songs.
Bob and I were tuning up behind a curtain some 30 minutes before the big show started. As I listened to Bob tune, I said, "Bob your guitar does not sound in tune". I was a young punk steel player--telling a famous singer song writer his guitar did not sound in tune. Bob looked at me and said, "Yes, I know Keith, but the people like it that way." When we started the show 30 minutes later, Bob's guitar sounded perfectly in tune. Since that time I have always been hesitant about telling anyone their instrument is out of tune.

The very FIRST time I ever dared bring my pedal steel out to a gig was backing up a singer/songwriter, in a duo, where he played acoustic guitar and sang. We both setup and tuned up, but during soundcheck, I simply could NOT play in tune. The more I tried, the worse I got, until my confidence was totally shaken. I finally said "Screw this. I'm not going to ruin the show. I'm simply not going to play. Sorry! I guess I wasn't ready", and slunk off the stage totally demoralized and self-loathing.

We went backstage and waited for the show to begin, and I picked up his guitar and started messing around with it, and something just seemed.......off. I don't know if it was the tension or what, but I checked his tuning with his clip-on tuner and it was fine. For some reason, I tried it with my iPhone Peterson Strobo tuner.........and he was @ a 1/4 step sharp, across the board!!

He must've messed around and screwed up the calibration on his Snark, and I had been too nervous during soundcheck to realize, just assuming that I sucked.

I recalibrated it, tuned him up correctly, went out and did the show......and it was fine, luckily. Not great....but fine.

Grrrrrr!!!!!

Larry Dering wrote:Keith, as a long time 6 string guitarist I can say that many players have a terrible grip on the guitar neck. This can pull the strings slightly off tune with other instruments but sound in tune with itself. Plus many guitars have a poor setup and play out of tune up the neck. Not saying that our ears and hands are any better. Maybe that's the reason we use bar shake to make it fit. My son plays drums and I can't say that has ever bothered me for in tune playing.

Exactly correct... Most lead players that I play with use 9's on their tele and squeeze way to hard bringing the string sharp and the bass , up the neck , is out of tune. Just have to adjust to what sounds best.

Keith, after reading some of these posts, it could be that someone's tuner is out of calibration. I bought a new Boss Chromatic tuner (still have it) several years ago. It wasn't right from the beginning. I'd tune and grab a chord and it would be out. I'd check the strings again and find some that were way off on the tuner. Re-tune and get the same results. I finally checked it against a Korg WT-10 and found that the Boss would fluctuate each time I tuned with it. Tried a new battery and that didn't help. It could be that someone in the band has a faulty tuner. Second to that, the guitar or bass needs a setup.
Another time, I put on a fresh set of Live Steel strings and some of the strings would go out as I moved up the neck. I never used that brand again. Sometimes you can get into a bad batch of strings in any brand. Usually because the availability of the high quality steel isn't available for a short period of time.

Greg Lambert wrote:

Larry Dering wrote:Keith, as a long time 6 string guitarist I can say that many players have a terrible grip on the guitar neck. This can pull the strings slightly off tune with other instruments but sound in tune with itself. Plus many guitars have a poor setup and play out of tune up the neck. Not saying that our ears and hands are any better. Maybe that's the reason we use bar shake to make it fit. My son plays drums and I can't say that has ever bothered me for in tune playing.

Exactly correct... Most lead players that I play with use 9's on their tele and squeeze way to hard bringing the string sharp and the bass , up the neck , is out of tune. Just have to adjust to what sounds best.

I wouldn't say most but its not uncommon. If a guitar player doesn't recognize that there is a pitch issue when fretting then its a huge problem overall. They will be chasing tuning problems all night and forever,. No different than a Steel player who thinks the FRET MARKER is the exact position to be in tune. OR the Bar is tilted slightly causing a pitch issue inside a chord.

All guitars are not equal, all fret heights are not equal. If a guitar player doesn't know what the fret heights are on thier guitars then they are driving blind in the dark with no lights on should they decide to go to lighter strings. Gibsons for example have TALL frets somewhere between .047 to .050. This is common and typical. Many Fenders come with much lower frets, in the .043 range. BUT some are in the .047 range as well. I am not talking about fret widths, I am talking heights. You cannot safely (pitch wise) place 9's on TALL frets, it can easily show in pitch issues when fretting . Its not the tuners.

Guitar specs matter. Knowing your instrument is knowing your tool. Just like the Steel players, KNOW your fretting position , know your BAR is straight, not almost straight, just straight !

Another element just came to mind. Never ever mix string brands. One of my students was replacing broken strings with strings of various brands and had intonation problems while moving up the neck. It was out of tune constantly. A new set of strings solved the problem. This applies to all stringed instruments.

Dennis Detweiler wrote:Another element just came to mind. Never ever mix string brands. One of my students was replacing broken strings with strings of various brands and had intonation problems while moving up the neck. It was out of tune constantly. A new set of strings solved the problem. This applies to all stringed instruments.

I don't think it's the brand so much as the age of the strings. As strings age their harmonic qualities change. Replacing a broken string is a stop-gap measure, a sign that you need new strings.

I believe this is why Buddy started tuning straight up (440). He was playing along with some classic jazz on the radio, but he sounded out of tune. So, he started tuning to the radio, eventually getting everything seemingly in tune. He grabbed a tuner and discovered that it was close to being straight up. So, tuned it all that way. He found that he was closer to being in tune at that point than he had been before. Also when working with the big band on the Swingin' albums, he was closer to being in tune with the horns and other fixed tuning instruments.

He told me that the G#'s stung his ears when he played by himself, but seemed to be in tune when playing with the band, so he compromised and tuned them slightly flat. (438.5).

Buddy always sounded in tune to me. So, I think it's relative to what other music is playing.

He advised me to try it when I complained I that I didn't sound in tune with the keyboards. I haven't looked back. We don't have a keyboard with us anymore, but I still like being in tune with the band. (My C6 neck sounds more in tune than it ever did before). When I first changed it all sounded out of tune. Especially playing by myself, (me noodling around). These days even playing 3 & 5 sounds okay to me. It's all what you're used to.

I can't imagine somebody with perfect pitch listening to steel guitars. It must sound like we've lost our minds tuning that far off pitch.

I told Buddy, "I guess flat is flat". He said, "Flat is flat"...

Best of luck, Keith! It seems to be an ongoing problem...

Ernie, our keyboard player is blind but has perfect pitch. So he is rather obnoxious about our tuning. It does drive him crazy. I often challenge him with a tuner and dammed if he isn't right.

I agree with all of these comments. I think the most important factor is the guitar and the bass almost always tune open and since they play very little on open strings, especially the bass, they are immediately slightly sharp when they play on the neck. The keys stay the same and then the steel is trying to be in sync with multiple tunings.