Hi, all! I'm looking for my first pedal steel. I contacted a vendor, who has two options I am considering. A Carter Starter, 3 and 4 configuration, for $850. The second, a GFI Student model, 3 and 2 configuration, for $1,250.
The owner advised me that he refurbished both, and believes the GFI is the better steel. However, I am concerned about only having 2 knee levers. I don't want to hit a ceiling early on with what I am able to learn. I am sure I will have to upgrade to a pro model eventually, but my budget is $1,300 right now and would prefer to spend less rather than more (wife and I just bought our first house, and have lots of projects).
Any advice is helpful, figured you folks could steer me the right way. The Zumsteel Stage One seems like an ideal option for what I'm looking for in my budget, but seems impossible to get your hands on these days. Thanks!
First Pedal Steel: Carter Starter VS GFI Student
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Jason Boucouras
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What James said. If that Justice guitar is set up in the same config as the GFI (a 3x2), it's close in price... but it's new.
Given that, maybe you could talk the GFI owner into a better price? At, say $1075, you would still have budget to add a GFI knee lever kit for $210 (assuming you're handy with tools).
I normally wouldn't counsel buying something with only 2 knee levers, but you indicated you would upgrade to a pro model at some point and you're wanting something now to get you going. You can definitely do that with a 3x2. And if you could pony up another $150, it could be a new Justice 3x3 which would cover all the most essential changes.
When you get to a 4th or 5th lever... opinions and personal preference send players off in their own personal direction; some do this, some do that. There's various camps and schools of thought; just do a post that asks 'what changes should I put on my 4th lever?' and sit back and watch. The disagreement is more indication that these levers are 'nice to have' but not 'essential for a beginner.'
Given that, maybe you could talk the GFI owner into a better price? At, say $1075, you would still have budget to add a GFI knee lever kit for $210 (assuming you're handy with tools).
I normally wouldn't counsel buying something with only 2 knee levers, but you indicated you would upgrade to a pro model at some point and you're wanting something now to get you going. You can definitely do that with a 3x2. And if you could pony up another $150, it could be a new Justice 3x3 which would cover all the most essential changes.
When you get to a 4th or 5th lever... opinions and personal preference send players off in their own personal direction; some do this, some do that. There's various camps and schools of thought; just do a post that asks 'what changes should I put on my 4th lever?' and sit back and watch. The disagreement is more indication that these levers are 'nice to have' but not 'essential for a beginner.'
Jason,
The difference between the two guitars you are referencing is that the carter starter pulls the high b down to bd and it has another lever that pulls the d# down to D.
The main difference between the gfi and the carter starter is that the gfi has movable bell cranks and the carter is a permanent (fixed) design with welded bell cranks.
The changer on the gfi is wide open and can do anything a pull/release guitar can do. The bell cranks move, so once again whatever can be accomplished with a pull/release mechanism can be done on a GFI.
The carter starter was intentionally made with limitations. Modifications can be made to the changer to open it up but the welded bell cranks will pose a problem.
I have owned a couple of the GFI student models over the years. They play well and I was able to add knee lever kits from the company to build them out to 3x4, which is their standard design for that model. In the day I paid around a hundred dollars per knee kit. They are 210 now (wow did that go up). This guitar is stable and feels solid when you are playing it.
I have read on the forum that the carter starter suffers from some issues with the f lever stop and that it feels "mushy" in the pedals down position. I have read that it is light and sometimes "walks" when you are playing.
You can find a lot of info by searching the forum for "carter starter copedent" and other keywords pertinent to your specific questions. Here is an example you should read:
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=351261
The way I think, I would take the 3x2 and add a lever when I feel ready. The vast majority of your playing will be done on those 5 changes anyway. The other 2 levers--no matter what they are--are typically not used as often. In the case of the 2 guitars you are comparing, you are missing 2 levers that only pull 1 string each. One is the open position dom 7th note, which you also have on string 9, and the other is a b lower on string 5, which you can certainly live without for a long time.
Whichever you choose good luck and welcome. If you haven't already seen it, let me recommend a website to you.
https://dhdube.wixsite.com/psgbeginner
The difference between the two guitars you are referencing is that the carter starter pulls the high b down to bd and it has another lever that pulls the d# down to D.
The main difference between the gfi and the carter starter is that the gfi has movable bell cranks and the carter is a permanent (fixed) design with welded bell cranks.
The changer on the gfi is wide open and can do anything a pull/release guitar can do. The bell cranks move, so once again whatever can be accomplished with a pull/release mechanism can be done on a GFI.
The carter starter was intentionally made with limitations. Modifications can be made to the changer to open it up but the welded bell cranks will pose a problem.
I have owned a couple of the GFI student models over the years. They play well and I was able to add knee lever kits from the company to build them out to 3x4, which is their standard design for that model. In the day I paid around a hundred dollars per knee kit. They are 210 now (wow did that go up). This guitar is stable and feels solid when you are playing it.
I have read on the forum that the carter starter suffers from some issues with the f lever stop and that it feels "mushy" in the pedals down position. I have read that it is light and sometimes "walks" when you are playing.
You can find a lot of info by searching the forum for "carter starter copedent" and other keywords pertinent to your specific questions. Here is an example you should read:
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=351261
The way I think, I would take the 3x2 and add a lever when I feel ready. The vast majority of your playing will be done on those 5 changes anyway. The other 2 levers--no matter what they are--are typically not used as often. In the case of the 2 guitars you are comparing, you are missing 2 levers that only pull 1 string each. One is the open position dom 7th note, which you also have on string 9, and the other is a b lower on string 5, which you can certainly live without for a long time.
Whichever you choose good luck and welcome. If you haven't already seen it, let me recommend a website to you.
https://dhdube.wixsite.com/psgbeginner
Last edited by Dave Dube on 17 Apr 2021 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mike Ritchie
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Mike Ritchie
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Well I love the idea of the pricing and adding parts as you go. I am just disappointed to see it only has a 2/1 changer. Unless it has some other method of tuning splits, you are not going to be able to tune a split on 5. With 2 raises and a lower, there is no other hole left in the changer for a rod to tune the split.
That is such a disappointment. Why bother building your all-pull guitar out and when you need to get another one anyways, because this one can't tune splits.
That's kind of a fly in the ointment on an otherwise fine product.
That is such a disappointment. Why bother building your all-pull guitar out and when you need to get another one anyways, because this one can't tune splits.
That's kind of a fly in the ointment on an otherwise fine product.
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Jason Boucouras
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Thanks for all the replies! Sounds like the GFI is the favorite. I had a couple bills surface, and decided I need to spare the extra $375 for the bills, so I ended up going with the Carter. I know it’s not the favorite, but I’m just hoping to get by on it for a year or two then upgrading once we aren’t doing as many house projects. Looking forward to getting my hands on it and learning!
A few months ago I had someone bring a Carter-Starter to my shop. He had just received it and had been badly abused and needed lots of attention. After I restored the setup and modded it with a much more solid stop for the LKL, I found it to be a good playing and nice sounding, legit steel guitar. Nothing at all to deter a beginner. I was happy to send him home with it.
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Jason Boucouras
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Thanks for sharing! I bought mine from Billy Cooper’s store, where I spoke to him on the phone regarding it. He said it was in pretty miserable shape when it came through his doors, but he rehabbed it and refurbished it, so I’m willing to bet it’s in significantly improved condition.Jon Light wrote:A few months ago I had someone bring a Carter-Starter to my shop. He had just received it and had been badly abused and needed lots of attention. After I restored the setup and modded it with a much more solid stop for the LKL, I found it to be a good playing and nice sounding, legit steel guitar. Nothing at all to deter a beginner. I was happy to send him home with it.
Jason
I am sure the Carter starter will get you where you want to go, especially since it was gone over by a pro. Maybe some people have not had to make do with equipment that was less than the best, but a lot of us have. As long as you get to keep picking, then you are learning and that learning time is worth way more than waiting without playing until you can buy that pro rig.
Keep picking
Dave D
I am sure the Carter starter will get you where you want to go, especially since it was gone over by a pro. Maybe some people have not had to make do with equipment that was less than the best, but a lot of us have. As long as you get to keep picking, then you are learning and that learning time is worth way more than waiting without playing until you can buy that pro rig.
Keep picking
Dave D
I agree.......I’m willing to bet it’s in significantly improved condition.
One of the beauties of an instrument that is never going to be a 'collectible" is that the upgrade I did for the LKL stop (which it really sort of needs....this one spot was the worst of the corner cutting that Carter did in order to bring this in at the price point) was done with simple hardware and a small piece of lumber. Night and day, the difference it makes in the feel and the durability of that lever.
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Dave Mudgett
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I know this discussion is moot now since the OP decided to go with the Carter Starter. But since the subject came up ...
I really don't understand the [edit for clarity] criticism of the Justice Jr. for having a 2+1 all-pull changer without tunable split screws. No starter guitar that I know about has tunable splits, and the vast majority (the only one I know about different is a vintage Emmons student model) are pull-release guitars, on which that is pretty much a moot point anyway.
With the exception of tunable splits, I can get all of my important E9 changes on an all-pull guitar with a 2+1 changer like the Justice Jr. And it's priced about $100 less than the GFI Student with 3 pedals and 2 levers. I especially like the idea that you can get into a reconfigurable all-pull guitar with 2+1 for a grand, and make it 2+2 for $150 more. That's a lot of guitar for the money, IMO.
BTW, my Franklin doesn't have tunable split screws. If I want them, I will need to drill the changer for them - I've seen a few people actually do that. I imagine a resourceful player could do the same for the Justice Jr. Or maybe they could do it at the factory for an upcharge if you asked them - I don't know. I think with that add, that could be a lifetime guitar for a lot of players looking for a light package.
I really don't understand the [edit for clarity] criticism of the Justice Jr. for having a 2+1 all-pull changer without tunable split screws. No starter guitar that I know about has tunable splits, and the vast majority (the only one I know about different is a vintage Emmons student model) are pull-release guitars, on which that is pretty much a moot point anyway.
With the exception of tunable splits, I can get all of my important E9 changes on an all-pull guitar with a 2+1 changer like the Justice Jr. And it's priced about $100 less than the GFI Student with 3 pedals and 2 levers. I especially like the idea that you can get into a reconfigurable all-pull guitar with 2+1 for a grand, and make it 2+2 for $150 more. That's a lot of guitar for the money, IMO.
BTW, my Franklin doesn't have tunable split screws. If I want them, I will need to drill the changer for them - I've seen a few people actually do that. I imagine a resourceful player could do the same for the Justice Jr. Or maybe they could do it at the factory for an upcharge if you asked them - I don't know. I think with that add, that could be a lifetime guitar for a lot of players looking for a light package.
Last edited by Dave Mudgett on 19 Apr 2021 2:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ken Mizell
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From what I've found through an awful lot of research, the Justice Jr. shouldn't take a back seat to any budget pedal steel guitar. The wait for one is very reasonable. $1,595 for a decent pedal steel with 3 & 4 is a great deal. The Stage One and Encore are great budget guitars too, but with quite a wait (they are said to be worth the wait was well).
I have a pro model BMI 3/4 body SD10, and I have 5 lowers on it, and none of them are on the same string. I could have exactly the same set-up on the Justice Jr.(2 raise, 1) as I do on the refurbished 40 yr old BMI (2 raise, 2 lower). I actually looked closely at the Justice Jr. before I found a great deal on the BMI here on the forum.
http://www.justicesteelguitars.com/S10%20Jr.html
I have a pro model BMI 3/4 body SD10, and I have 5 lowers on it, and none of them are on the same string. I could have exactly the same set-up on the Justice Jr.(2 raise, 1) as I do on the refurbished 40 yr old BMI (2 raise, 2 lower). I actually looked closely at the Justice Jr. before I found a great deal on the BMI here on the forum.
http://www.justicesteelguitars.com/S10%20Jr.html
Steeless.
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Jerry Overstreet
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Congratulations on getting started on pedal steel Jason.
I'm not particularly fond of the Starter, but since it has 4 knees and with Billy's attention, I believe you'll find it quite adequate.
The GFI student is OK too, but with only 2 knees, I believe that would be limiting. Of course they can be added but that's an additional cost bringing the price to nearly twice what you paid for the CS.
I think you made the right decision and you won't have too much to lose when you decide to upgrade to a more professional grade instrument.
Best of luck on your progress. Be happy to help any way that I can from a remote location.
I'm not particularly fond of the Starter, but since it has 4 knees and with Billy's attention, I believe you'll find it quite adequate.
The GFI student is OK too, but with only 2 knees, I believe that would be limiting. Of course they can be added but that's an additional cost bringing the price to nearly twice what you paid for the CS.
I think you made the right decision and you won't have too much to lose when you decide to upgrade to a more professional grade instrument.
Best of luck on your progress. Be happy to help any way that I can from a remote location.
Oh Dave, I just said what is.
In the first place I seem to recall wishing that a vendor would make just such a build-as-you go guitar on the forum years ago--long before Justice came out with the Jr. Do you think I like that idea any less now that they are making it? What did I say above? I "love" both the idea AND the pricing. That sounds like praise to me.
I also noted that it doesn't seem to be able to do splits by design. I said that is a disappointment to me. Though I gave a rationale,. let me elaborate.
Typically beginner guitars are pull/release. An all-pull for the same price is killer. The main things I would expect to get from an all-pull guitar are raise and lower on the same lever/pedal, and splits.
I can get raise and lower on pull/release with reversers so really the feature that an all-pull guitar offers me above a pull/release is splits.
The idea of building a great guitar as you go is kind of short-circuited if when you get done you still can't split 5 and 6. I did not see that option offered. IMHO it would be an incentive for a person to buy a Justice and add every upgrade including tunable splits. Then one would be building a "keeper." If I know that it will not be able to do the common splits I will not be inclined to look at the justice guitar as the "right guitar." It will be a "right now" guitar. A very good beginner guitar, just not the guitar that beginners aspire to ultimately have. If the owner knows he will have to have another guitar anyway, then he will be less likely to buy all the changes.
Do I like Justice guitars? Yes. Do I like the value proposition of the justice jr? Yes.
I just think that the lack of tunable splits on the finished product short circuits the "build it over time" strategy. Adding an ooption for a couple fingers set up to do splits would make the proposition unbeatable.
I guess I should say that discussing splits is full disclosure for newbies who might not realize there is such a thing, or might believe any all-pull guitar does splits.
Just as Winnie Winston's book is standard for a beginner and works with a 3x1, I am a fan of "Buddy Emmons's E9 Chord Vocabulary" for intermediate learning and that course is keyed to a guitar with tuneable splits. It gives you a chance to explore Buddy's copedent and ideas for string movement and passing chords etc.
Buddy's copedent for this course had only one change on what we'd call the G lever: 6 lower 1 step. He used it with the B pedal and tuned the split. He did similar things with string 5 on the X lever and A pedal. There is some interesting stuff there to learn and perhaps better understand the genius of Buddy Emmons.
To me that is the path. If you want to stop short of that, no problem, however a new guy should get to make that decision up front or keep his options open.
As far as Justice goes, they are a fine company making fine products as far as I can tell. The Jr. is a great idea and will ultimately bring more people to the pedal steel and I support that.
(Edited to clarify the position)
In the first place I seem to recall wishing that a vendor would make just such a build-as-you go guitar on the forum years ago--long before Justice came out with the Jr. Do you think I like that idea any less now that they are making it? What did I say above? I "love" both the idea AND the pricing. That sounds like praise to me.
I also noted that it doesn't seem to be able to do splits by design. I said that is a disappointment to me. Though I gave a rationale,. let me elaborate.
Typically beginner guitars are pull/release. An all-pull for the same price is killer. The main things I would expect to get from an all-pull guitar are raise and lower on the same lever/pedal, and splits.
I can get raise and lower on pull/release with reversers so really the feature that an all-pull guitar offers me above a pull/release is splits.
The idea of building a great guitar as you go is kind of short-circuited if when you get done you still can't split 5 and 6. I did not see that option offered. IMHO it would be an incentive for a person to buy a Justice and add every upgrade including tunable splits. Then one would be building a "keeper." If I know that it will not be able to do the common splits I will not be inclined to look at the justice guitar as the "right guitar." It will be a "right now" guitar. A very good beginner guitar, just not the guitar that beginners aspire to ultimately have. If the owner knows he will have to have another guitar anyway, then he will be less likely to buy all the changes.
Do I like Justice guitars? Yes. Do I like the value proposition of the justice jr? Yes.
I just think that the lack of tunable splits on the finished product short circuits the "build it over time" strategy. Adding an ooption for a couple fingers set up to do splits would make the proposition unbeatable.
I guess I should say that discussing splits is full disclosure for newbies who might not realize there is such a thing, or might believe any all-pull guitar does splits.
Just as Winnie Winston's book is standard for a beginner and works with a 3x1, I am a fan of "Buddy Emmons's E9 Chord Vocabulary" for intermediate learning and that course is keyed to a guitar with tuneable splits. It gives you a chance to explore Buddy's copedent and ideas for string movement and passing chords etc.
Buddy's copedent for this course had only one change on what we'd call the G lever: 6 lower 1 step. He used it with the B pedal and tuned the split. He did similar things with string 5 on the X lever and A pedal. There is some interesting stuff there to learn and perhaps better understand the genius of Buddy Emmons.
To me that is the path. If you want to stop short of that, no problem, however a new guy should get to make that decision up front or keep his options open.
As far as Justice goes, they are a fine company making fine products as far as I can tell. The Jr. is a great idea and will ultimately bring more people to the pedal steel and I support that.
(Edited to clarify the position)
Last edited by Dave Dube on 20 Apr 2021 6:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Jason Boucouras
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Thanks for the kind words and thoughtful replies, Dave! I can already tell I will get a lot of mileage out of this forum, it seems there are a lot of passionate folks on here with a lot of wisdom to share.Dave Dube wrote:Jason
I am sure the Carter starter will get you where you want to go, especially since it was gone over by a pro. Maybe some people have not had to make do with equipment that was less than the best, but a lot of us have. As long as you get to keep picking, then you are learning and that learning time is worth way more than waiting without playing until you can buy that pro rig.
Keep picking
Dave D
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Jason Boucouras
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That sounds killer! If you have details on the upgrade, feel free to DM me or post them here how you did it. I know Billy gave the guitar a serious work over, but I don't have a list of the details of exactly what was done, and it won't be here until late this week.Jon Light wrote:I agree.......I’m willing to bet it’s in significantly improved condition.
One of the beauties of an instrument that is never going to be a 'collectible" is that the upgrade I did for the LKL stop (which it really sort of needs....this one spot was the worst of the corner cutting that Carter did in order to bring this in at the price point) was done with simple hardware and a small piece of lumber. Night and day, the difference it makes in the feel and the durability of that lever.
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Jason Boucouras
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Thanks, Jerry! Yeah, that was my thinking. I almost changed my mind a few times and went with the GFI, but given that I would have to upgrade to a pro eventually with either option, I figured I would go with the one that saves me some money now. I'm sure I'll be posting on here with a fair amount of playing-related questions once I get my hands on it, definitely seems to be a lot of wisdom here on the forum.Jerry Overstreet wrote:Congratulations on getting started on pedal steel Jason.
I'm not particularly fond of the Starter, but since it has 4 knees and with Billy's attention, I believe you'll find it quite adequate.
The GFI student is OK too, but with only 2 knees, I believe that would be limiting. Of course they can be added but that's an additional cost bringing the price to nearly twice what you paid for the CS.
I think you made the right decision and you won't have too much to lose when you decide to upgrade to a more professional grade instrument.
Best of luck on your progress. Be happy to help any way that I can from a remote location.
I can't find my photos of the mod I did. Filed under 'idiot'. Grrr. Let's wait and see if Billy upgraded the LKL. If not, I'll post a sketch. There have been other approaches to the same issue, posted here --- it is a universally acknowledged weak spot on the C-S and the relative simplicity of the various methods of improvement mean that it is a project that anyone who is a little handy can probably find a version of and do himself. Post some photos when you get it and let's see what you've got.