Lower g# with split on B vs raise F#

[Daniel Phelps]

Hey everybody.
Just fiddling around with copedent ideas and would like some feedback. I have a triple raise double lower changer.

My question is about F# and g# strings. I have a knee lever raising 1 and 2. On that lever, I can also
1) lower g# split with b, with gives me every note on the fret
Or
2) raise f#, which.... I dunno. I like the way the wound string sounds when it’s raised. It’s just a bright “high” sound. I don’t know how to describe it.

What do you think? Am I missing out by not having the “pedals up minor”. And the “pedals down dominant”?

I noticed I can finesse the lever and still get those chords although the group changes and it’s hard to get right quickly. And if I’m raising F#, I can get a nice major 7 voicing with pedals down.

So many trade offs.

Daniel.

[Dave Mudgett]

I prefer your option #1: lower string 6 G# to F# and split with B pedal for G. That is priority #4 change on any guitar I have with at least 4 levers. To me, there are an enormous number of possibilities with that lever if it's on the opposite knee from the E=>Eb lever. If I have 5 levers, priority #5 is string 5/10 B=>Bb.

Paul Franklin rightly points out here - https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=353036 - that the string 6 G#=>F# lower can interfere with useful things being done with the string 1 F#=>G# and string 2 Eb=>E changes. My take is that if I find that to be a problem, I can quickly disable it by unscrewing the relevant string 6 nylon at the changer.

Buddy Emmons' "standard" setup has the 6th string G#=>F# lower - https://b0b.com/wp/copedents/buddy-emmons-e9th/. I can't remember exactly why I tried it - whether I specifically put it on after reviewing some ideas (like Buddy's setup) or it was on a guitar I got. But for me, the advantages of that particular change outweigh any disadvantages of any conflict with the string 1/2 usages.

If I have a 6th lever, then it makes sense to me to separate string 6 G#=>F# from the string 1/2 changes and instead put string 7 F#=>G or G# there and put string 6 G#=>F# on that extra lever. But most of my guitars are 8+5.

Definitely - tradeoffs, tradeoffs, and more tradeoffs. You pays your money and takes your choice.

[Jerry Overstreet]

Yeah, you can't have everything. I guess it's a matter of making the most out of what you have.

In my case, I have the option #1 like yours. 1&2R and 6L with the split on RKL.

I have the F# to G# on RKR which lowers 2 and 9. I have a half stop for the G note.

AB pedals with the half tone gives you a dom7 and with the whole tone raise that nice maj7. It'll spoil you. You might try it adding it there.

I haven't touched a pedal steel in months and don't have one here so I forget exactly all the possibilities and whether there is any interference with 2 and 9 but I can't really think of any.

[Richard Sinkler]

I prefer your option #1: lower string 6 G# to F# and split with B pedal for G. That is priority #4 change on any guitar I have with at least 4 levers. To me, there are an enormous number of possibilities with that lever if it's on the opposite knee from the E=>Eb lever. If I have 5 levers, priority #5 is string 5/10 B=>Bb.

Paul Franklin rightly points out here - https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=353036 - that the string 6 G#=>F# lower can interfere with useful things being done with the string 1 F#=>G# and string 2 Eb=>E changes. My take is that if I find that to be a problem, I can quickly disable it by unscrewing the relevant string 6 nylon at the changer.

Buddy Emmons' "standard" setup has the 6th string G#=>F# lower - https://b0b.com/wp/copedents/buddy-emmons-e9th/. I can't remember exactly why I tried it - whether I specifically put it on after reviewing some ideas (like Buddy's setup) or it was on a guitar I got. But for me, the advantages of that particular change outweigh any disadvantages of any conflict with the string 1/2 usages.

If I have a 6th lever, then it makes sense to me to separate string 6 G#=>F# from the string 1/2 changes and instead put string 7 F#=>G or G# there and put string 6 G#=>F# on that extra lever. But most of my guitars are 8+5.

Definitely - tradeoffs, tradeoffs, and more tradeoffs. You pays your money and takes your choice.

I agree with Dave's comment in blue. Actually, the 6th string lower is my 3rd most used lever after the E raises and lowers. But since the 6th lower is on my RKR (my E's are on the left), with 2 pulls also on the C6 neck making the lever pretty stiff (5 changes), I have moved my 1st & 2nd string changes to my vertical. I really want them on RKR though, and may either eliminate the changes on the C6 neck (which I don't use much) or only change 1 string on the lever on C6 hopefully making the lever a little easier to use.. As for Paul Franklin's recommendation of not having the string 1 & 2 raises on the same lever as the 6th lower, in 50 years of playing, I have never had the need to do the things he says the 6th lower interferes with.

My first guitar only had 2 levers, and 5 pedals (ZB S10). I had Greg Lasser in San Francisco add 3 levers, and one of the changes he recommended was the 6th string lower, and I have had it on every guitar since then. We didn't split tune in those days (mid 70's). I didn't start split tuning until I got my Carter in 1999. I could "half lever" to get a G on string 6, even though that ZB S10 had 5 pedals and I lowered both G# string to G on one of the pedals. Never used it much, so it never made onto any of my double neck guitars. I will never give up that 6th lower change.

I also like the string 7 change to G#. I do have a 2nd LKL that I have the 7th string raise on now to try out, and will add the first string to G and a half stop on 7 at G. I tried the 1 & 2 string raises on this lever, but found it not to my liking.

I never really liked the B to Bb lowers. I'm pretty decent at half pedaling the A pedal, so the split was never really important. I have been thinking of putting it on pedal 4 (with my current C6 changes) to lower the 5th string, next to my A pedal (I am a Day player). I'll add a split tuning rod to it. I do really like the Bb lower to give the same type of change to a II chord like the 5th pedal (G to F#) lower on the C6 neck. That has been my only use for the change when I have put it on my guitars in the past. Didn't use it enough to tie up a knee lever that I could use for something more useful to me.

[Daniel Phelps]

Wow this is a lot to take in.

What if I have two guitars?

Will that help?

[Jerry Overstreet]

Apologies if anything I wrote added to the confusion.

In short, all I was saying was you might considering adding the 7th string raise on the lever that lowers 2 and 9. I wouldn't see any need for you to make any other changes as long as you're happy with the existing set-up.

[Daniel Phelps]

Apologies if anything I wrote added to the confusion.

In short, all I was saying was you might considering adding the 7th string raise on the lever that lowers 2 and 9. I wouldn't see any need for you to make any other changes as long as you're happy with the existing set-up.

Heh it’s no problem Jerry. I think I might try that, or maybe even just the half step f# to g raise on that lever. I have the parts and the time today.

Daniel

[Richard Alderson]

Dear Daniel - I am a bad example because my guitars do both; Its definitely so cool to have string 1 and 2 raises and then string 7 raise mirroring the string 1 raise but one octave lower; I do that on vertical LK; then I have an extra pedal on the floor to make up for the loss of the B-flat vertical, so I have both G# changes, 6th string lower and 7th string raise, by having 5x5 instead of 4x5; I lower the G# to F# pretty much like a lot of people, on the RKL; However if I had to choose, and I couldn't have both, it would have to be the G# to F# lower. It comes into play so often playing strings 4 and 6 simultaneously and then lowering them both by engaging E lower with the G# lower. I think the guitars that have the 1st and 2nd string raise together with the 6th string lower, "get the most bang for your buck", its two separate functions on the same knee lever, and which don't interfere with each other that much. Or you could dispense with the Bflat vertical if you are adept like Richard at half-pedaling the A pedal. In that case you can get both the 7th string # raise (on a vertical together with the 1 and 2 raise) and the 6th string lower, on another knee lever;

[Pat Chong]

Hi Dan,
I second adding the F# to G to RKR, as it makes the "feel-stop" more "feel"-able. I did this on string 1, though......
Personally, I do have the G# to F# on a lever, but nothing else, and, as was mentioned, it is used often. The 1 & 2 string raise is on a pedal for faster action, along with string 7 raise to G. What I have added kind of mirrors what had already been mentioned .......but a slightly different view.
......Pat

[Ian Rae]

Raising 7 gives you two notes; lowering 6 with a split gives you four and some interesting movement, which is what pedal steel is about.

[Dean Holman]

I use the 7th string raise to G#. I can do the same thing as lowering the 6th string to F#. I also use it to split the Franklin change by lowering 5 a whole and having the 7th string already raised to G# and release to lower to F#. It also sounds good with a&b pedal pressed and then raise the 7th with it, plus, I’ve always liked that change raising it with 4,5 and 6 open and raising 7 in unison with the 6th string G#. It also sounds good playing 6,8&10 with a&b pedals pressed and then raising the 7th with it. There’s other things you can do with it. Lowering the 6th on a knee lever in my opinion, is limited. I’m getting ready to raise my 6th string from G# to Bb. I know Franklin raises it to B, but I’ve found it more useful to raise it to Bb. There’s a lot of good splits and combinations with those changes.

[Dean Holman]

I forgot to mention, I’m using that 6th string raised on the vertical lever. I’m also adding a staggered lever to lower 5&10 B’s to Bb. So, I’m able to lower 5&10 a half with the staggered lever, and I lower 5&10 a whole on the 4th pedal. I lower my E’s on RKL, I raise 1,2&7 on RKR, and I lower 2$9 on LKR, and of course I raise my E’s on LKL. I’ve been playing for almost 35 years, and this is the best setup I’ve come across, but that’s just what works for me. Also, I can do that 6th string lower a whole by just as an example, play 4,5&6 in A, then go back 2 frets in the G position and press your 3rd pedal. So, there’s 2 ways I can get that 6th string lower, without lowering the 6th at all.