The Steel Guitar Forum

On guitar in standard tuning I know all the notes on the neck very well. It's almost like each note's name is written on the fretboard when I look at it.

Lap steel on the other hand is a mystery. I think that's one reason I love it so much. I'm not sure exactly what notes I'm playing and just follow my ear to try to find good sounds.

In my musical journey I typically have a 1 year goal that I'm working on. For instance I took a year focusing on developing my vibrato on guitar. And of course at the end of those 12 months my vibrato was MUCH improved.

A couple weeks ago I decided I'd spend the next 12 months learning all the notes on the neck of my lap steel for my main tuning (Leavitt). What this looks like is each week I take a note (e.g. "C") and I find all the C notes on each string.

I do this at the beginning of my practice time, and then move on to tunes. Next week I'll focus on another note (e.g. "F") and do the same thing. I'll go thru this until I get the fretboard pictured in my head with all the notes on all the strings.

When I get Leavitt tuning down, I'll probably go thru the same process with C6 tuning.

How many of you guys know all the notes on the neck for your tuning(s) vs. just going by ear/patterns/licks?

David DeLoach wrote:
How many of you guys know all the notes on the neck for your tuning(s) vs. just going by ear/patterns/licks?

That depends on the tuning!

I'm comfortable with A6, and E7 enough to read staff notation, I'm getting better with C6 and other tunings.

But with other tunings I still sometimes have to think about what the notes are on certain strings.

no.

You can run a tuner in-line that shows what note you are currently playing, like the Boss TU-2.

That's a great idea, Pete! I have only the root note of chords to work from.

Joe Cook wrote:That's a great idea, Pete! I have only the root note of chords to work from.

Yes! For example the tuner method allows you to see the 3 or 4 individual notes you are playing in a particular chord, at a certain fret position.

Absolutely. Wasn’t easy.

Mike Neer wrote:Absolutely. Wasn’t easy.

It's not easy - and you do it very well!

I went to a lesson with guitarist Nir Felder a few years ago, bringing only my lap steel, and basically I played a bunch of modes and scales in different intervals from the lowest possible note to the highest, not using any specific fingerings, but just randomly switching strings. He’d say, “ok, play the lydian dominant in A in fourths from lowest to highest,” stuff like that. It was an eye-opener and difficult, but also what I felt was essential in being able to at least attempt to get to the place to improvise freely without playing positions/cliches.

I'm working on it too.

Intervals and patterns. If I’m in the key of Eb and the current chord is Fm, I am not going to be thinking F-Ab-C, I’m going to be thinking “two minor triad”. As long as I know where the tonal center (root chord) is, I know exactly where to put the bar for any chord or lick related to that key.

It's an ongoing process... It's difficult even when you stay with one tuning. If you switch tunings, add or subtract strings, use pedals or knee levers or scruggs tuners or other pitch changing devices, it can become overwhelming.

Mike Neer wrote:... what I felt was essential in being able to at least attempt to get to the place to improvise freely without playing positions/cliches.

That's a noble goal.

I'm still working on the position/cliche licks!

Dom Franco wrote:It's an ongoing process... It's difficult even when you stay with one tuning. If you switch tunings, add or subtract strings, use pedals or knee levers or scruggs tuners or other pitch changing devices, it can become overwhelming.

Adding more variables?

That's why I don't (can't?) play pedal steel.

delete: don't think the link worked.

I’ve always relied on positions and patterns but would like to know the fretboard better.

Watch this video
https://youtu.be/PJddQ6Q0UDo

Fred, thanks for that video. The guy has a straightforward method, I've always wanted to but haven't as of yet, I'm going to give it a try. I rely on positions and intervals most of the time. I've done a decent amount of ear training so I can normally hear the changes and relativity to the root, and try to play a melody.

Mike Neer, just to fully understand your comments - When you were asked to play the A Lydian dominant in 4ths, were you thinking in terms of note names? Or were you thinking of whether the next pair of 4ths in the scale were sharp or perfect? Of course you have to know where the A is...Knowing the note names on the guitar neck is pretty fundamental, but I think of it as a preliminary to pattern and interval playing. I know what my learning process was, but I did not have any formal training. Did you learn one independently of the other, or both simultaneously, and do you recommend one way or the other? The video guy has apparently made up his mind.

Fred, I think of the notes, and in the case of playing in pairs or triads it would be like looking at two instances of the scale at the same time. To think of it in terms of analyzing intervals would come later on.

Another thing I think is cool and should do more of is bi-tonal: play two different scales simultaneously. There are some really interesting sounds in there.

I was also self-taught but studied with some heavy hitters as an adult when I hit dead ends, i still like to study and sometimes I teach just so I can pay for lessons with others. But as much as I am really curious and interested in deep learning, at the same time I can’t escape my Rock and Roll past.

So we have learned two things.

From Mike Neer we have learned that you can really become a great player if you learn the notes on the neck.

From Bill Hatcher, we have learned that you don't need to learn the notes of the neck to be a great player.

Lol, knowing them and playing them are not the same thing. Plus all the others which are equally important, especially rhythm.

Bill McCloskey wrote:So we have learned two things.

From Mike Neer we have learned that you can really become a great player if you learn the notes on the neck.

From Bill Hatcher, we have learned that you don't need to learn the notes of the neck to be a great player.

Haha! That pretty much nails it.

I think if you want to immerse yourself in learning the note names on your fretboard, the video guy’s system would probably work. David (the OP) has intuited the system, as possibly many of us have, and Bill M, you are involved in your process. To me, it seems a little tedious. It can be accomplished by osmosis while learning other more musical concepts, and it really comes down to just getting a deeper understanding of the tuning up and down the neck. But I guess whatever works for you.

I have used an Android app called Fretboard Learn to learn all the notes on the fingerboard. It can be set up for any instrument - it makes it into a game that you can play anytime you have a few minutes.

YMMV

"To me, it seems a little tedious"

And there is the rub. To me, it is enjoyable. But, I imagine, our intent is very different.

Everything for me is about jazz and improvisation, especially over jazz standards. Breaking apart each chord and scale and knowing the different places I can play on the neck just adds to my improvisational bag of tricks.

When I was playing finger style guitar and playing songs, I never learned the notes on the neck. Just played the tunes. But I wasn't trying to improvise.

Bill McCloskey wrote:"To me, it seems a little tedious"

And there is the rub. To me, it is enjoyable. But, I imagine, our intent is very different.

Everything for me is about jazz and improvisation, especially over jazz standards. Breaking apart each chord and scale and knowing the different places I can play on the neck just adds to my improvisational bag of tricks.

When I was playing finger style guitar and playing songs, I never learned the notes on the neck. Just played the tunes. But I wasn't trying to improvise.

I probably shouldn’t have used the word, tedious. We have very similar intent and practically the same means toward the end of our intentions, with one major difference.

I started my own spreadsheet that charted all possible intervals (not note names) between all strings including all changers on my 12-string psg. What I found was that the exercise of writing it out was all I really needed to do to get a better grasp on the possibilities for achieving my goal. I don’t know if it’s right, but the process cleared my head of the idea and I really believe it helped. But, I hardly ever pull it up on the computer to study it. So you see, I have my own manner of tedium, which I enjoy in my own odd way, and then I just chuck it and get back to trying to play.

If you are reading a lot of music, then I can see how knowing all the locations of all the notes by name might be a priority. But, as the the great Bill Hatcher implies, not necessarily so.

Just a thought for players that actually are trying to learn the neck by note names - it might be helpful to add a number to the letter name that indicates the octave of the note. For example, the lowest A would be A1 and the highest would be A4. There might be 5 practical locations for some notes, but only one for others.

Fred, don't know if you looked at the link I shared. I color code octaves sometimes in the spreadsheet It helps me visually to grasp the neck.


Chords I'll break down this way: