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Topic: Killing the volume to stop dissonance with harmony |
Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 24 Aug 2020 10:43 am |
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Last week I ran into a question of musical judgment with no easy answer. Maybe one of you have had to deal with it enough that you've developed a rule of thumb.
I'm playing a small outdoor gig this Sunday with me on steel, an acoustic guitar, and two vocals (lead and harmony). We have only recently included the second vocalist and so she is more or less improvising. In our only practice with all of us, there is a part on a song where I hold a dyad that is slightly dissonant with the lead vocals. It is a tolerable dissonance and the lead vocalist says he likes it. However, it sounds even more dissonant with the harmony vocals... to the point where I think it may be better to mute the note quickly so that the dissonance is not as stark.
The stubborn part of me doesn't want to rewrite the phrase to exclude that dyad - and at this point changing it up might throw off the other guy. Muting the dyad quickly leaves an awkward-feeling space in the song. I feel like the worst attitude, though, is to try to convince myself that the dissonance is not a problem... or at least not my problem. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 24 Aug 2020 1:09 pm Re: Killing the volume to stop dissonance with harmony
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| Curt Trisko wrote: |
| I feel like the worst attitude ... is to try to convince myself that the dissonance is not a problem... or at least not my problem. |
That's the best attitude - you were there first 
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 24 Aug 2020 3:48 pm Re: Killing the volume to stop dissonance with harmony
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| Curt Trisko wrote: |
| In our only practice with all of us, there is a part on a song where I hold a dyad that is slightly dissonant with the lead vocals. It is a tolerable dissonance and the lead vocalist says he likes it. However, it sounds even more dissonant with the harmony vocals... to the point where I think it may be better to mute the note quickly so that the dissonance is not as stark. |
(I apologize, in advance, for stating the obvious.)
You have two vocalists singing, and you're playing only two notes? Either you are "out" or one of the vocalists is. So, where exactly is the problem? Be honest. |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 24 Aug 2020 4:36 pm Re: Killing the volume to stop dissonance with harmony
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| You have two vocalists singing, and you're playing only two notes? Either you are "out" or one of the vocalists is. So, where exactly is the problem? Be honest. |
The dyad that is problematic is the root and fifth of the I chord being played over a vi7 chord by bending the root of that chord down a step and letting it ring. In my experience, 7ths always sound dissonant on steel guitar. I should qualify this by saying that the song is one of those that isn't cleanly within one key. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 24 Aug 2020 6:46 pm
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You didn't say what notes are being sung, and admittedly I'm pretty poor at theory...but it sounds like that transition might almost be from a vi7 chord to a m11 chord? I hear seventh chords as active, but not necessarily dissonant. A minor eleventh is a different story; some dissonance is part of its appeal.
Sorry, I probably got in above my head on this one.  |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 24 Aug 2020 6:55 pm
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| Couldn't tell you what notes the harmony vocals are singing without turning it into a project. The lead vocals pretty much always only a pivot a couple steps off the root. I won't argue with my ear about whether it's displeasing. It is. The thing is what to do about it. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 24 Aug 2020 7:15 pm
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| Curt Trisko wrote: |
| The thing is what to do about it. |
Angle the bar  |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 24 Aug 2020 9:46 pm
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It's pretty tough to evaluate this without seeing or hearing the musical specifics. But since you're asking for a rule of thumb ... I agree with Doug on this. To me, there's an easy rule of thumb on anything like this - if I'm doing anything that clashes with the vocal, I need to either find something different that clearly fits or, failing that, lay out completely.
Hey, if you can't or won't do that - I'd get totally away from the vocal. Get out of their register, carefully analyze anything they're singing and if I have to play anything at all, I'd make sure it's simple and absolutely compatible.
To me, the only reason to play off the vocalist(s) while singing is if we're specifically trying to get me to harmonize with or support them in some specific way. And remember, when playing a dyad, you now have four voices - you need to make sure that whatever you're doing, the resulting chord makes something good.
Also - you seem to imply you're playing some sort of bend in the middle of this. Again, this seems to me to be stealing spotlight from the vocalists and introducing lots of potential for serious dissonance.
If you're playing atonal music, dissonance is where it's at. Harmonious music - be harmonious. |
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Steve Hinson
From:
Hendersonville Tn USA
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Posted 25 Aug 2020 4:48 am
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Play something different...
SH |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 25 Aug 2020 5:48 am
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Or just play octaves. Hey, it worked for George Benson.  |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 25 Aug 2020 6:22 am
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| Steve Hinson wrote: |
Play something different...
SH |
Well, duh . What makes the judgment tough is that we won't be practicing again until the morning of, I'd probably have to rewrite the entire phrase (which might throw off the other guy since he would not be used to hearing it), and there's no guarantee that the harmony vocalist won't revise her part anyway. For all I know, she is thinking the same thing about her part... which I guess would be on me for trying to handle it myself instead of communicating with her. |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 25 Aug 2020 6:34 am
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| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
| It's pretty tough to evaluate this without seeing or hearing the musical specifics. But since you're asking for a rule of thumb ... I agree with Doug on this. To me, there's an easy rule of thumb on anything like this - if I'm doing anything that clashes with the vocal, I need to either find something different that clearly fits or, failing that, lay out completely. |
Laying out completely is the default for me when I'm playing as part of a larger accompaniment. The acoustic guitar and steel are the only instruments here, so it risks creating random dead space... looking to the audience like I forgot what part I was supposed to play. My instinct here is to compromise on that - to keep the same part, but to quickly fade out the sustain. When a note is sustained is when a little bit of dissonance goes a long way. That's what makes steel guitar different than a lot of instruments and makes us so sensitive to it.
| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
| Also - you seem to imply you're playing some sort of bend in the middle of this. Again, this seems to me to be stealing spotlight from the vocalists and introducing lots of potential for serious dissonance. |
The bend is not a part of a lick. It is just the standard thing of keeping the chord progression flowing and adding some tension and resolution to the song. I suppose it is a matter of opinion of whether it detracts from the vocals, but like I said, I asked the lead vocalist about it before the harmony vocals were introduced and he said he liked it.
If we get a good recording of it from the show I'll post it here. |
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Steve Hinson
From:
Hendersonville Tn USA
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Posted 25 Aug 2020 4:44 pm
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| Curt Trisko wrote: |
| Steve Hinson wrote: |
Play something different...
SH |
Well, duh . What makes the judgment tough is that we won't be practicing again until the morning of, I'd probably have to rewrite the entire phrase (which might throw off the other guy since he would not be used to hearing it), and there's no guarantee that the harmony vocalist won't revise her part anyway. For all I know, she is thinking the same thing about her part... which I guess would be on me for trying to handle it myself instead of communicating with her. |
...around here we'd just play something different...sorry.
SH |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 25 Aug 2020 7:11 pm
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| Steve Hinson wrote: |
...around here we'd just play something different...sorry.
SH |
Well, around here we routinely paint ourselves into corners and feel lucky if we find a steel part that elevates the song.  But point taken. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 25 Aug 2020 9:11 pm Re: Killing the volume to stop dissonance with harmony
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| Curt Trisko wrote: |
| The dyad that is problematic is the root and fifth of the I chord being played over a vi7 chord by bending the root of that chord down a step and letting it ring. In my experience, 7ths always sound dissonant on steel guitar. |
I don't understand. Are you bending the root of the I chord or the vi7 chord?
The tritone interval of the 7th chord is dissonant by definition, but the interval 5 to b7 is a minor third. If that sounds dissonant by itself, your 7th is simply out of tune. Playing that I7 against a vi7 could definitely be a problem, though. Is that what you're doing?
Sometimes I mute one note of a chord and let the other(s) ring. That might be an option for you here.
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 26 Aug 2020 6:16 am Re: Killing the volume to stop dissonance with harmony
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| b0b wrote: |
I don't understand. Are you bending the root of the I chord or the vi7 chord?
The tritone interval of the 7th chord is dissonant by definition, but the interval 5 to b7 is a minor third. If that sounds dissonant by itself, your 7th is simply out of tune. Playing that I7 against a vi7 could definitely be a problem, though. Is that what you're doing?
Sometimes I mute one note of a chord and let the other(s) ring. That might be an option for you here. |
Sorry for the lack of clarity. The bend is dropping the root down a full step to the flat 7th while holding the minor 3rd. That flat 7th is the 5th of the following chord. I'm using the Emmons sweetened tuning preset on my Peterson Strobe Tuner, but I think the dissonance is not about pitch but instead note choice. Playing the 7th on 7th chords on steel guitar has never been good to my ears. The brightness of tone takes away from the lushness you get from playing them on guitar or piano. |
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Jeff Peterson
From:
Nashville, TN USA
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Posted 28 Aug 2020 12:05 pm
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| What bOb said...don't play a triad..drop a note and listen to the offending note suddenly 'fix' itself. |
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Gary Newcomb
From:
AustinTexas, USA
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Posted 30 Aug 2020 12:39 pm
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Good thread! I third b0b on this- simplify what you’re playing harmonically in that part of the measure and then pick it back up when you don’t have to compete for the same musical real estate. Smooth vocals win the gig every time!
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 31 Aug 2020 8:18 pm
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| Curt Trisko wrote: |
| If we get a good recording of it from the show I'll post it here. |
https://soundcloud.com/curt-trisko/llv-practice/s-H7omkPik3We
Here's our pre-gig practice of this song that I recorded on my cell phone. Ignore the flubs and you'll hear the part I'm talking about at 1:28, 1:39, and again every chorus after that. The first couple times I tried to do what Jeff and Bob described and fade out the preceding dyad and come in with just a single note (the flat 7th). I didn't like how it sounded so for the rest of the song I went back to fading it out quickly like I was describing... but just with less confidence.
All that said, my question in this thread wasn't whether the part is dissonant or what to do in a perfect world - it was how to exercise judgment on last minute changes when someone else's last minute addition changes how your part works. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 1 Sep 2020 5:25 pm
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Curt, I believe you're right. What you're playing sometimes really isn't working that well (to my ears, anyway). To me, it sounds like 98% of your playing is just C-pedal on the 4th and 5th strings? I realize this is just a scratch track, but as a suggestion, I'd add some lower voicings to try to add some body to the song as the vocals and guitar seem pretty weak.
'Course, that's just one old man's opinion. |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 1 Sep 2020 7:21 pm
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
Curt, I believe you're right. What you're playing sometimes really isn't working that well (to my ears, anyway). To me, it sounds like 98% of your playing is just C-pedal on the 4th and 5th strings? I realize this is just a scratch track, but as a suggestion, I'd add some lower voicings to try to add some body to the song as the vocals and guitar seem pretty weak.
'Course, that's just one old man's opinion. |
It's good to hear that someone agrees, Donny.
Regarding the rest of my playing, it's the usual A+B pedal and E knee levers stuff. You're right about the 4th and 5th strings. The other guy strongly prefers the steel in the middle pitch range... and it works for the feel of his songs. For his songs, I've developed the habit of staying in that range during the verses and chorus and then throwing in stuff outside of it during the instrumental parts. I do the same in this song. I thump the 10th string and also hit a harmonic on the 3rd string in the intro.
What you're hearing with the vocals and guitar is that my cell phone was closer to my amp. He favors full chord flavors with lots of hammer-ons and pull-offs. He wrote his songs to be played by just him - I only add my accompaniments after the fact. |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 3 Sep 2020 6:28 am
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| I'd add some lower voicings to try to add some body to the song |
I think I have a home-produced recording on my computer of a prior incarnation of the song that the songwriter made with just his vocals and guitar. I can send it to you if you want to try out some alternate phrasings and recommend them to me. |
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