The Steel Guitar Forum

Hello everybody.I have a 2000 Carter D10,polished pedals and knees..also with the PF pedal.I have a friend that wants to trade his 1980 baby blue formica S10/w loafer pad,push pull in like new condition.The Carter is like new also.He wants to trade even.Would this be a fair deal???I already have two other steels and really I don,t play the Carter that much anyway.I would like to trade.I don,t know what each of them are worth.Can I get some feedback from anyone?????? Thomas Malugin Columbia,Tn

If the push pull is as you say.I'd take the deal and paint the Emmons. Sorry don't care for baby blue.Other than that.Sounds like a fair deal.........bb

If you don't play the Carter much, why not do the trade? It would give you experience with the push-pull mechanism, and an opportunity to explore a different beast than your all-pulls. If it was me, I'd do the trade - provided the push-pull was properly adjusted and everything was original and in working order. From there I'd start to explore the workings of the push-pull, and learn as much as I could about the way that mechanism operates. I have no experience with a push-pull, and that's the precise reason I would want to do the trade. There's something so inherently noble and enticing about an Emmons original, and every one I've heard seemed to have that nice, thick, chimy tone for which they're historically known. I couldn't resist doing the trade for that reason alone. In fact, my next guitar will be a push-pull. I've been planning it for a while, and can't wait. I envy your trade opportunity. I do have to say, however, that my old Carter D-10 had tone to the bone, and I loved it. Great guitar. But I reverted back to an S-10 and decided to go back to a Pro 1. If your Carter was your only guitar, I'd say don't do the trade. But if you have others, I'd go for it. You could always get your Carter, or another similar Carter, back if you wanted.

If you don't play the guitar that much go for it, but to me I would't A nice D10 versues a PP S10? The D10 to me has more stuff to play with.

I think it would be a hell of a deal!

For the guy getting the D-10 Carter.

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John Drury
NTSGA #3

I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

A lot of people are willing to trade a new Ford for an older Cadillac!

The resale value of Emmons P/P's is high, but I don't think it's that high. I think the deal would be lopsided in your friend's favor.

Still, if I didn't play the D-10 very often, I'd probably go for it just to have a p/p in the house. They are sweet!

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<font size="1"><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
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Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog </font>
<div style="display:none"><font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by b0b on 20 November 2006 at 09:41 AM.]</p></FONT>

An Emmons push-pull SD-10 will outsell a standard 2000 D-10 Carter in a couple of years -if the Buy and Sell section of the forum is any indication. Used dealers are increasing the prices of the Emmons original as well. That of course, does not figure at all into the quality of each instrument, just resale value. It's pretty obvious that the two guitars shooting up the quickest in value these days are the Sho~Bud LDG and the Emmons push-pull, while some of the modern used guitars are dropping in price. Although its not fair to compare newer models to vintage guitars that are no longer being made, it's still a reality when buying a guitar. I ilke the fact that my Sho~Bud would fetch the same price or higher than what I paid for it, if it was on the market - which it's not - for a change.

I lean towards the philosophy that if an object that I don't need or use can be converted into one that I do want, will use, then, within monetary reason, it's a good deal all around. Sure, you can convert an item into cash and hope that the sought after item will be available at the right price but it has always felt like a good piece of kismet when a nice tidy trade comes around. I've got a mint '94 Les Paul that I have absolutely no use for and I almost turned it into an LDG but the deal didn't happen. I think I would have gotten the worse end of the deal, $$-wise but to me it would have been a beautiful trade.
So the question is--is an SD-10 pp something you really want? If so, here's a way you can have one and it won't cost you a cent.

I had two Carters.This friend bought the older one from me about a year or so ago.For some reason he wants the newer one also.He has this emmons push pull that he says is a 1980 model/loaferpad s10/that he bought brand new.He says that he went to the factory to watch them make it.I,ve known this guy for ALONG...time and I know he,s telling the truth.I think he,ll come up with some money to boot,I didn,t know how much his guitar would be worth.His guitar is in like new condition....Thomas Malugin

I recieved an email the other day, traded a PP for a carter becouse he was tired of trying to keep the PP in tune, he is smart, Carter guitars are unbeatable in playability for me.

ernie

..Tom, unload the Carter and get the Push/Pull before he changes his mind...

It's my understanding that a push-pull should stay i tune as good or better than an all-pull if it is adjusted properly, yes? I had a chat with Neil Flanz in St. Louis this year, and we were talking about the push-pull mechanism. I was explaining to him that I wanted one but was nervous about tuning issues. He gave me a confused look and said, "Why would a push-pull give you tuning problems? If it's set up right, it shouldn't give you any problems at all." He was dead serious. Conversations with push-pull users since then have confirmed this. So I'm left with the conclusion that they are very reliable tuning-wise, if they are properly maintained. Can the many push-pull owners here on the forum testify to this?

Chris,

I'm certainly not the worlds foremost expert, but I can attest to the push pull that I own, play and dearly love.

I have to tune the changer about once every year or so. Not kidding here! Just like all other stringed instruments, tuning at the key is a daily, or sometimes more often, task.

All of the all pull guitars that I have owned required retuning the changer any time that there was a significant change in environmental conditions.

Tuning the PP changer is not a difficult task if you learn to do it properly. There are plenty of instructions to be found, and plenty of professional push pull mechanics/technicians that will gladly help you learn.

Bobby Bowman's web site has GREAT PP info, as does Bobbe Seymour's PP maintenance video.

All of this being said, worn out parts and/or improper maintenance/adjustment on any machine will cause problems.

Push Pull is nothing to be scared of. Some lovem em', some hate em'. I LOVE EM'!!

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David Collins
www.alpinesoap.com

I agree with David, and I completely endorse what my colleague Neil Flanz told Chris LeDrew. I have 4 PP's,... all 64's and 65's..., use them all professionally, and rarely, if ever, have tuning issues or even have to tune the pedal changes. Of course, my guitars have been doctored by Professors Bowman and Cass.

The PP has been one of the standards of the industry for its entire duration. It didn't get that way by being unnecessarily problematic.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 22 November 2006 at 05:22 AM.]</p></FONT>

I use an old s-10 push pull as my main gigging guitar...I haven't had to mess with the changer for YEARS, and everytime I take it out of the case all 10 strings are perfectly in tune with the "A" at 440 hertz EXACTLY. The guitarist and bassist have abandoned their tuners and now tune to me...true story.

'What Neal and Herb said.

I've owned 3 push-pulls over the years. '71 S10, '77 D10, '81 S12. The S10 was my first modern guitar and was set-up exactly the way it came from the factory (all the proper slack). I had some "cock-eyed" notions of how the guitar should be adjusted and proceeded to "tinker under the hood". In a short time the guitar was a total mess and a real pain to play. It took along time to find someone who knew how to bring it back to factory playability.

Years later I bought the D10 and S12. I had Bobby Bowman work on each as soon as I took possesion. They play smooth as silk and I never have tuning issues. The tuning may drift a couple of cents in between gigs, but thats about it. When I change strings, I don't pull on the strings to help them settle in. I just string 'em up, hit the pedals a few times and tune the strings open. The changer has rarely needed any tuning. In fact, I've found if the changer does need tuning it's because a hex screw underneath has worked itself loose. Once it's located and re-tightened the changer is, once again, spot-on.

At one time, I owned three guitars: A Sierra S14 and the S12 and D10 push-pulls. I now have only the D10 p/p and have no anxiety about playing it in any situation, any time. And I don't worry about having a "back-up" guitar. Emmons push-pulls: great sounding guitars and very reliable. "The Standard" for my ears.

Tom, one note regarding the Carter/Emmons trade: Carters have a highly regarded tone and a playability. Even though the Emmons p/p tone is perceived as a "benchmark", consider the other differences of the trade. Do you have another D10 or U12 guitar? If not, are you willing to give up the additional playability of the C6th tuning?

Regarding the investment value of the two guitars; It's true, the Emmons "Original" is consistently going up in value, and chances are you won't loose any value in the trade. But, market demand can be fickle. Who's to say Carter guitars won't be in top demand, tomorrow? Value-wise, I'd say the current market value on an S10 push-pull with a 3p/5k might range between $1500 and $2200 (near-mint condition). I'd guess the current market for a used Carter D10 (standard copedant) will be very close to that. It may range a little higher, say $2500 (with BCT in near-mint condition). If both guitars are in comparable condition, I don't think you'll get burned.

My advice: Don't trade for investment. Choose with your heart. Which guitar would give you the biggest thrill to play, time after time?

Best wishes for the right choice for you!

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

Think about it.
The Emmons push/pulls are no longer in production.
The Carters are being cranked out EVERY day.

Just the the law of "supply and demand" will determine the future value of both guitars.

Regarding my first hand experience of Emmons Steels staying in tune....I have a '71 Emmonds D-10 and I never had any real problems with it going out way of tune.

Usually temperature changes like playing outdoors in the sun, or the steel needed to warm up to near room temp from riding in the van in the winter time.
Most times I got to a gig 1 hour early and set it up and let get up to near room temp. Then only a couple minor tuning adjustments from the keys. Just like a regular guitar.

I stopped playing for about 25 years and the steel was in its case all that time. I recently took it out and set it up and suprizingly, it was still near in tune after all that time sitting in its case!

I wouldn't hesitate buying another Emmons.

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1971 Emmons D-10 8/7 #1568 D, Rosewood

I a;most forgot.The emmons volume pedal goes with the s10 emmons.

Good explanation of push-pulls: Bobbe's vid
Maintainance Series
Emmons Original Push-Pull
Tuning and Maintainance

The mysteries of the push-pull guitar are simply and graphically explained so anyone can thoroughtly understand this type of chord changing system. This video explains how this type of changer is constructed and why it sounds better, stays in tune better and makes the push-pull guitars the choice of the most discriminating professionals, extremely collectible and their value continues to rise. This tape is a must for any Emmons push-pull guitar owner.


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"The less I was of who I was, the better I felt." -- Leonard Cohen

Chris,
everything is in tune, easy, no problems!

Horst

The big problem with old Emmons guitars is that they really do have a sound that is impossible to get with any other steel. Once you feel that sound under your hands it is very difficult to go back. Every steel player should spend some real time with a push pull.

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Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website

<SMALL>Once you feel that sound under your hands it is very difficult to go back.</SMALL>

Well said and so true.