Lloyd Green question

Joel Paterson · From: Chicago, Illinois, USA

Does anyone know if Lloyd Green had a knee lever lowering the 2nd string to D at the time of the "Hit Sounds" LP in 1966?

Jon Light (deceased) · From: Saugerties, NY

Joel--someone else will know the answer to your question but let me complicate your life if you are trying to figure out something he played---Lloyd does a lot of bar slanting. If you already knew that, cool. If it's news to you---sorry.

Joel Paterson · From: Chicago, Illinois, USA

Hey Jon,
yeah- the lick I'm wondering about requires a slant any way I slice it. It's a V7 chord lick on "Motel Time Again", I can find three ways to play it- all with slants- but I was wondering if a 2nd string lower was the way Lloyd played it because it seems like the most natural option.

Jon Light (deceased) · From: Saugerties, NY

I've humiliated myself in the past, trying to discuss some of the stuff Lloyd does. We have some serious students of Lloyd's here (students as in studying on Lloyd)--Ricky Davis comes to mind--Jon Graboff showed me some stuff long ago that just messed me up--I never would have guessed that was how a particular thing was done. Just made me admire Lloyd even more.
One comment--have you examined the string 1 & 5 combinations, both with bar movement and with A pedal half-pedaling? That's where I find some of the Motel Time & Jukebox Charlie stuff. Not that it's right.

Damien Odell · From: Springwood, New South Wales, Australia

Ah, the mention of Jukebox Charlie.
I have spent SOOO many hours trying to work out exactly what's going on in parts of that track. As a fairly new player, I haven't done much with slants yet but I'm thinking that slants have to be the answer to some of the phrases in there.
It sounds so good the way he plays it, maybe with a little more work I will be able to sound half as good.
It sure is a challenge
Damien

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I'm pretty sure the answer is yes. Lloyd had 2 levers on E9th back in the early '60s...a lever which lowered the 2nd to D and raised the 9th to D#, and a lever that lowered both the E's to Eb. He had both these changes a few years before that album was released. Shortly thereafter, he discarded the E lower's. I seem to recall he had said that was due to some tuning issues he had on the guitar he was using back then.

edit: Found it! (Yeah, took a couple of days...

) Here's a scan of a page from my "Sho~Bud Tuning Guide", about 1962?

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 16 November 2006 at 02:25 PM.]

Mike Shefrin · Posted 14 Nov 2006 5:41 pm

[This message was edited by Mike Shefrin on 17 November 2006 at 03:35 PM.]

Joel Paterson · From: Chicago, Illinois, USA

Thanks for the input, everyone.
Donny, I didn't know about the 9th string raise to D#. Is that in place of the 8th string E lower to Eb? I always thought Lloyd had the E lower on 8 and not on 4 (due to return problems).
To me the key to playing Lloyd licks from this period is getting comfortable dancing over to the C pedal and back. I used to feel like I was stepping off a cliff but I'm getting better the more I learn this song. I got it pretty well figured out and the only slant that I hear is the lick in question-
I'm talking about the first time they go to the V chord after the guitar solo- on the instrumental version of "Motel Time" (not the Paycheck version).
I believe that the lick starts on fret 10 picking strings 2 and 7 with the 2nd string lowered a half step, then use a forward slant with string 6 on the 9th fret with string 2 still on the 10th fret and still lowered with the knee lever- then bring the 6th string back up to fret 10. The lick has the flat 7th throughout and the 9th going up two steps to the third.

Jon Light (deceased) · From: Saugerties, NY

This is Ricky Davis' tab of
Jukebox Charlie
on the Rebel & Ricky site. It is from the Little Darlin' Johnny Paycheck sessions. Lloyd reprised this on his CD. I hope I don't mangle my recollection: I was confused by Ricky's use of the B pedal on the 3rd string and I asked him and he acknowledged that indeed he uses a bar waggle but I think he wanted to make it more friendly to pedal pushers. I don't use the 3rd string, myself---I do the main licks on strings 1 & 5. With a bar waggle.

Joel Paterson · From: Chicago, Illinois, USA

Jon,
I play that bar "waggle" blues lick on strings 3 and 4 with the B and C pedals down. This seems natural and Lloyd comes out of it into a string 3,4, and 5 triad from a B and C pedal chord.
I'm sure there will be more on this posted this evening, I gotta go to a gig (on guitar thankfully!). I'll look at that tab later.

Don Walters · From: Saskatchewan Canada

check this re: Lloyd's tuning

Joel Paterson · From: Chicago, Illinois, USA

Don, thanks for the link. I checked out the tuning section- I see Lloyd's setup is what I thought it was but I'm still curious if he had the second string lower in the mid '60s.
I noticed on that page that Jimmy Day's E9 also doesn't have the 4th string lower to Eb. I never knew that. Does anyone know when Jimmy Day went from D9 to E9? I'm more familiar with his earlier work where I'm pretty sure it's D9.

Michael Douchette · From: Gallatin, TN (deceased)

Lloyd says Ricky Davis has it "accurately tabbed out."

------------------
Mikey D...

Jon Light (deceased) · From: Saugerties, NY

Motel Time
I stand corrected about the use of the B pedal. I like the sound of doing the bar thing but the question was about how Lloyd did it. I don't know what I was remembering or misremembering about Ricky's comments about the tab.

Joel Paterson · From: Chicago, Illinois, USA

Jon, I looked at the tab you posted for Motel Time. I'm trying to get used to going between the 3rd and the 1st string for that famous blues lick. Like I said before- I was playing it with string 3 and 4 with B and C pedal, it seemed easier.

Mark Ardito · From: Chicago, IL, USA

Hey Joel,

That lick going back and forth on the 4th and 1st string is used a lot on the intro to "If I'm Gonna Sink" by Paycheck. Lloyd played the steel on that one. It's about twice the speed of Motel Time so take it real slow at first

As mentioned again...it's the same lick on Jukebox Charlie. I don't use the 3rd string with the pedal...just use the bar waggle on the 1st string.

All of these tunes are on that Paycheck reissue CD The Real Mr. Heartache.

Cheers!
Mark Ardito

[This message was edited by Mark Ardito on 16 November 2006 at 10:47 AM.]

[This message was edited by Mark Ardito on 16 November 2006 at 12:25 PM.]

Jon Light (deceased) · From: Saugerties, NY

Two clarifications--the tabs above are in fact the Ricky Davis tabs (I think?) in question. Not mine. And while I also use that string 1 & 5 double stop combination---I use it a lot with blues & rock stuff with half pedaled & released pedal 5th string---actually when I wrote about 1 & 5 above I really meant 1 & 4 to get the Jukebox & Motel stuff that Lloyd does on pedaled 3 & 1.

Mark Ardito · From: Chicago, IL, USA

Jon,

I'm sitting at my cubicle at work and not at my steel....you are correct. Those licks are on 4th and 1st string, not on 5th string.

Cheers!
Mark

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

To clarify more.
I tabbed those out that were the easiest for me to play it(and more user-friendly; if not knowing the technique of that bar waggle); and not how Lloyd played it. Lloyd does indeed use the 1st string waggle; eventhough the notes are correct that I tabbed is what he was saying is correct.
Ricky

Joel Paterson · From: Chicago, Illinois, USA

Well now we are all nice and confused. First of all- Donny, thanks for your scan of the diagram. That answers my original question about the knee lever and a way to play the lick that started this thread.
Now we are talking about a different lick: The famous bar waggle on Jukebox Charlie and Motel Time again. Any discussion of Lloyd Green from this era will inevitably turn toward this signature riff. I would love a definitive answer on how Lloyd played it. Now we seem to talking about three or four different options. It might seem like a minor point but this is one of the most famous licks in all of pedal steel and countless players of all abilities try to play it. I always thought that it was related to Lloyd's use of the B and C pedal for 9th and 13th chords and other bluesy chord effects. Now if the notes are right I guess it doesn't matter but there always is a reason why the great players play something a certain way.

Joel Paterson · From: Chicago, Illinois, USA

Now I'm liking the waggle on strings 1 and 4, no pedals. The timbre sounds better.
The intro of the Paycheck "Jukebox Charlie" is off the fingerboard on a Sho-Bud now! Lloyd's intonation up there is amazing.

Joe Miraglia · From: Jamestown N.Y.

Just IMPROVISE. and go on to the next song

. That's why there are so many ways we tune, set our pedals lower this string etc. There are so many players that do it there way, to play it like then would be next to impossible. Do it the best way you can and your way might be better that then original. " Better than the original?"

Joe

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