I'm glad i looked at my tuning a little closer

Gary Steele · From: Columbus, Ohio, USA

I have to share this. I want everyone to sound as good as possible. Listen carefully this worked for me. I tuned to the Strobo flip tuner. I'v used a strobe for years. Usually i tune to the Newman Temper tuning and this sounds pretty decent.Lately i do that and then i fine tune everything by ear. I'll tune the E's with the Pedals down to 440. This takes the cabinet drop out on my e's when the pedals are down. Then i'll tune my 3rd string to my 4th open. This is all open tuning at the keys i'm talking about now. I'll hit the 4th and 3rd together and there is a clean sounding sweet spot in between the the wabble sound or what ever you want to call it. Then i'll tune the 5th to the 4th and do the same thing. and so on. This has worked a miracle for me. I think this is what you call tuning the guitar to its self. Anyway it sounds clean sweet and like a MILLION dollars. After i do this i start tuning the pedals and knees. I know some guys tune to harmonics but it seems like this is as good. Who else does this kinda like this. If you seen what i'm talking about i dont think you would ever tune with a tuner and just play that way. I guess a guy haves to want to get out and off of easy street to do this. Just set down and pick a little on my guitar if you see me and you will know what i'm talking about. Everyone jump in and let us know your secrets. Also i'm planning on programming this in my tuner then i can get this done in a flash. Also i really believe every guitar is a little different and you have to do this with each individual steel. Am i right you OLE PROS???
Thanks and bring it on.
Gary steele.

[This message was edited by Gary Steele on 31 October 2006 at 03:42 PM.]

Michael Douchette · From: Gallatin, TN (deceased)

The "clean sounding sweet spot" between the "wobbles" is what is known as a terribly flat third. By yourself, it's the "best" way to play, because it sounds kinda nice. With other instruments, you are out of tune, and it will show at that point.

Live with the "wobbles" of a properly tuned third. When you get used to it, the way without 'em sounds really flat and annoying.

From an "ole pro."

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Mikey D...

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Gary, I tune EXACTLY the same way. I didn't before three years ago. This is tuning the guitar to itself. Michael, I think you have a good point there. I think that leaving some of the wobble there is necessary to be in tune with the rest of the band. I noticed this attribute over the years.

Twayn Williams · From: Portland, OR

I tune the open strings straight up on A440, then I tune all of the pedals and knee levers so that all of the 5ths are pure when they are engaged. I tried the Newman tuning for awhile, but the out of tune 5ths drove me nuts.

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

I've found that if I try to tune my 5ths beatless, then tweak the 3rds to be in tune with a band, I was always frustrated with it. I have never really analyzed how I tune, or documented it, I just know it sounds right with a band. I guess I'm kinda winging it, but it works.

Having said that, if I am making my own BIAB arrangement, or playing solo, I tune differently with less beats for a "sweeter" sound.

Maybe that's at the heart of the heated tuning threads. Play with a band...tune one way, play solo...tune another way. I don't know, I'm just a hack, so take my comments with a large grain of salt...or maybe a whole salt lick!! ha, ha!

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

Consider basically doing the same thing- only starting with the A note. That way- the guitar will not be tuned flat but to A 440. The E's will be a titch sharp, etc and the guitar will still be tuned to itself-

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

I like your approach, Gary.
Piano tuners do basically the same thing, getting the relationships right within the temperament octave.
You've got to have a starting place (I like my A's at 440, like Jim). From there, testing the intervals, particularly 4ths and 5ths, gives a good start. Somewhere, you'll have to compromise, whether guitar or piano.

It can be helpful to bear in mind some 'rules'--4ths are a little wide from pure, 5ths are a little narrow. The 'wobbles' don't matter so much in playing; but in tuning they can tell you if you're on the right side or wrong side of pure. Being just on the correct side of pure, regareless of how close or far, will help rectify the tuning, and thirds and sixths will be easier to tune to taste.

When you have it like you like it, you can map it or program it into your tuner for quick reference. I haven't done that yet. I just keep tuning til it's better, recognizing that perfect doesn't exist.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I think that the "sweet spot" thirds are fine in a perfect world. I tune my thirds sharp of that but flat of equal temperament. I can live with some "wobble", and it doesn't sound awful if it drifts a little flat or sharp.

Disclaimer: I am not a professional musician.

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Gary Steele · From: Columbus, Ohio, USA

When i tune this way and play along with a CD like Timeless or i have a CD by Mel Street i like real well. It seems to sound right on. Jim was talking about starting with the A. I'm trying to figure out how to do this and how to get all the open strings and All the pedals and levers in also. I am stumped for just a moment here. These wabbles i'm talking about is actually an out of tune sound and in between these are a nice clean tone that seems to say wow that is clean sounding with pedal up and down. I think i have found a little Miracle for myself. I realize many people probably tune similar to this. I wish several other people would tell how they do it also. I'm gonna program this in my tuner before long. But i'm thinking i better put new strings on and play about a week and let them stretch out some but still be in pretty good shape where it will hold tuning good while i do this. Peterson told me to go to the equal tuning on the strobe and find the cent for each note and right all them down and call her and she will tell me how to put this in the tuner for my personal temperment. I think they have 4 places or maybe even more for your own personal setting. Also i want to make sure i'm gonna keep this rains before i do this. I think it is a keeper. Listen to what is said about these babies.???????

David Doggett · Posted 31 Oct 2006 7:08 pm

Here's one way to tune a 10-string E9 pedal steel guitar to itself by ear.

Tuning the open strings (at the keyhead):
1. Take an E note from a tuner or other source, and tune the 4th and 8th strings to E. In all the procedures to follow, do not retune these strings.
2. Tune the 3rd, 5th, 6th and 10th strings to a nice sounding E major chord, with the 4th and 8th strings as the roots. The 3rd and 6th strings are the third of the chord (G#); and the 5th and 10th strings are the fifths (B).
3. Use the open 5th string as the root of a B chord, and tune the 2nd string as the third of the chord (D#), and the 1st string as the fifth (F#). The 7th string is tuned as the fifth below the B root.
4. Use the 10th string as the root of a Bm chord, and the 7th string (F#) as the fifth, and tune the 9th string as the minor third (D) of that chord.

Tuning the pedal and knee stops:
1. Press the A and B pedals. This should change the E chord (I) to an A chord (IV). The open E strings (4 and Cool

are not changed by the pedals, and these are the fifths of the A chord. Tune the pedal stops as roots (A) and thirds (C#) to these fifths. The roots will be the stops on strings 3 and 6; the thirds will be the stops on strings 5 and 10. Do not retune the reference Es on strings 4 and 8 while tuning the pedal stops; rather tune the pedal stops to those Es.
2. Press the B and C pedals. This should give an F#m chord (IIm). Tune the C pedal stop on the 4th string (F#) as the root an octave above the F# on the open 7th string. Tune the C pedal stop on the 5th string as the 5th (C#) of the F#m chord. Do not change the tuning of the 6th and 10th strings or the B pedal stops. You may need to tweak the 7th string slightly so that it is in tune with the B pedal stops for this chord.
3. If you have a lever that raises the Es to F (called the F lever) on strings 4 and 8, activate that lever and the A pedal. This should give a C# major chord. Tune the F lever stops on strings 4 and 8 as the thirds of this chord, with the 4th and 8th strings being the thirds (F), and the 3rd and 6th strings being the fifths (G#). Do not change anything but the F lever stops.
4. If you have a lever that lowers the Es to Eb (The E-lower lever), this should give a G#m chord (IIIm). Tune the stops on strings 4 and 8 as the fifths of the chord, with the roots (G#) on strings 3 and 6, and the minor thirds (B) on strings 5 and 10. Do not change the strings or stops on anything but the E-lower lever stops.
5. If you have a lever that lowers the 2nd string D# to D, tune that stop as an octave to the D on string 9. Or tune it as the minor 3rd of the Bm chord with the B on string 5 as the root, and the F# on string 1 as the fifth.
6. If you have a lever that lowers the 5th string B to Bb, tune that as the minor third (C) of the Am chord made with the A and B pedals and this lever.
7. Other pedals and levers are not standard, but should usually be tuned by the principles above, as part of the chord they are most commonly used for.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 31 October 2006 at 07:15 PM.]

Billy Carr · From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)

I use the VS-II tuner w/ JN pre-sets. I tune my guitars open to the tuner. After that I tune the pedals/KL'ers by ear if they need to be finely tuned. This works for me, simply because each PSG is a little different when it comes to raising/lowering strings with pedals/KL'ers. I'm yet to find a PSG that is in perfect tune everywhere, so I tune according to what I need at the time.

Gary Steele · From: Columbus, Ohio, USA

David Doggett, That even worked better.I never did mess with different tuning that much, But i am sorry now. PLEASE hear me, If you play Please for your sake learn to get it in tune with itself. My steel sounds like a steel guitar now. It used to sound like a PARTIALLY ALMOST IN TUNE STEEL.Every note is clean and MEAN. Dont make the mistake i did and tune to a tuner and play, UNLESS THAT IS YOUR MIND SET.Now i know why John and the other boys sound so good or should i say EXTRA GREAT. WOW TUNITTUPP. YOU BEEN TOLD???????????????????????????

Gary Preston · From: Columbus, Ohio, USA

How bout ''A-440'' ? Having the A as the root note and tune the rest to that ? Sounds pretty good to me ! My buddie has been tuning this way for years now . It's very hard not to tune out the ''wobbles''/beats '' and will take some time to get use to ! Just a thought ! G.P.

[This message was edited by Gary Preston on 03 November 2006 at 02:23 PM.]

David Doggett · Posted 3 Nov 2006 3:57 pm

Thanks, Gary. This is nothing but the old traditional ear tuning method used by steelers before chromatic tuners were widely available. It might seem complicated when it is all written out. But in practice, you just tune 3 chords by ear and you're done. I can do that faster than it would take me to tune each string to the meter. I only use the meter when I can't hear what I'm doing.

If you have cabinet drop, your A chord with the pedals down will be slightly flat, because the Es will drop slightly when you activate the pedals. This affects nothing except playing open at the nut. If you would prefer your A chord to be dead on, and let your E chord be slightly sharp, then tune the E strings straight up to the meter with the pedals down. Only tune the E strings. Then let off on the pedals and start with step 1 above (without retuning the Es) and follow the other steps.

If you have substantial cabinet drop, and you play a lot open at the nut and want both the A and E chords to be as close as possible to A=440, there is a simple way to split the difference. Tune your E strings to the meter. Press the A and B pedals and watch the meter to see how much the Es drop. Take half of the drop and tune the Es that much sharp of A=440. For example, if your Es drop 8 cents, then tune them 4 cents sharp of straight up. Your E chord should end up 4 cents sharp, and your A chord will end up 4 cents flat. To me, that is better than having one or the other be 8 cents off.

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

EJL

Gary Preston · From: Columbus, Ohio, USA

Thanks David ,that makes sense to me . It does seem to me that you have to comprimise somewhere . Gary .

Gary Steele · From: Columbus, Ohio, USA

Gary there is no compromise, You just tune each steel like he says to its self and it should sound better than John Hughey, And if it does let me know that RECEIPE ALSO,LOL
Gary.

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

David - After using that method to tune, where does that leave the F#'s, in relationship to the C#'s? If they are in tune with the B's, won't they be a tad sharp with the C#'s?

Paul Brainard · From: Portland OR

It's always a compromise, there's no way around it. Either it's all beautifully in tune with itself - and nobody else - or you split a whole bunch of differences and get used to playing a little out of tune along with the rest of the band. Maybe one's preference depends on what one listens to while playing, oneself or the one's ensemble (sorry. . .) I often find my own playing lovely at the time, but on playback I'm horrified at my flat thirds, although nobody else seems to notice. . . but I have found that in the final analysis, judicious use of vibrato is the key to making it all work.

However one thing I've never heard discussed in this recurrent thread is what kind of guidance steel players recieve (or don't) from producers who are experienced in this matter. Seems to me we should defer, when applicable, to the boss's wishes. But I have rarely worked with anyone who could tell me which way they prefered that I tune, or (usually) even fully understand the choices. But I would think in Nashville where you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a steel player, they must have an opinion on such earth-shattering questions. What's the word on the street there? Do they mark "ET" or "JI" next to your name on the union rolls?

Shane Reilly · From: Melbourne, Australia

I'm glad that you're glad you looked at your tuning closer Gary.

This post has reminded me to keep tuning my ears.I feel I'm a little closer to TUNETOPIA now,a place that's impossible to get to but I think I can hear it from here.It made me go back and search the archives for more points of view.When your new to this instrument it's hard to understand that every guitar is different and you just need to trust your own ears,one of the few occassions to believe what you hear not what you see.Cheers,Shane.

Larry Behm · From: Mt Angel, Or 97362

Since getting the Strobflip my guitar is even more intune. I tuned my guitar with it and by ear, marked down the setting and now I can tune in the loud club environment with confidence.

Larry Behm

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Gary Steele · From: Columbus, Ohio, USA

Larry Behm, I'm getting ready to program mine in my stroboflip. I'm gonna put new strings on and do this in about a week. I tuned this steel up Sunday and put my cover over it and carried it out to the van and went down and set in with Mike Siglers band and i was out from taking it in chilly weather. I had to grab my stroboflip and retune quick and played. Mike played it and seemed to like it pretty well. Then i went back home and played some with the SE9 tuning then i went and tuned it by ear again like i'v been doing and there was no comparison. I'm sure glad i got deep in this tuning thing before i waited any longer. I really didnt think i could tune by ear like this, But i did and i am a happy camper. One i get this in my tuner like Larry did i can tune fast. Like i said dont miss out on getting it fine tuned to ITSELF. You'll be glad you did.
Gary.

George Redmon · From: Muskegon & Detroit Michigan.

David Doggett · Posted 7 Nov 2006 7:10 am

Lee, there is an issue with the F#s on strings 1 and 7. In my step 3 above, you are tuning those as the 5ths of a B chord. Technically, for just intonation (JI) fifths are 2 cents (0.5 Hz) sharp of straight up. But for practical purposes, anything within 5 cents is acceptable. So with a meter I ignore that 2 cents and tune 5ths straight up to the root of the chord. Tuning by ear, maybe I get that 2 cents, maybe not, depending on the vagaries of my ear, the difficulty of tuning that close with the tuning key, how old the strings are, and whether the moon is in Jupiter. In the earlier steps the B was tuned as the 5th of the E chord, and so that is straight up (except for possible cabinet drop compensation as described above). So the F#s are tuned as straight up 5ths to a straight up B root, which is fine for using the F#s in a B chord or as scale notes using the “chromatic” strings (which are really just scale strings, not chromatic strings). The straight up F#s are also good as 9ths in the E chord.

But for the F# minor chord (IIm) using the B and C pedals, those F#s will be a little sharp sounding. The reason is that the minor 3rd of that F#m chord is the A stop on the B pedal. It is tuned straight up as the root of the A chord with the A and B pedals. But, as the minor 3rd of F#m, it should be 16 cents sharp of the F# root. But you can’t change that A stop or you will throw off the A chord (the IV chord), which is used much more than the F#m (IIm chord). To be in tune with the F#m chord, while leaving the A straight up, the F# roots would need to be tuned 16 cents flat of straight up. That’s why in step 2 for tuning the pedal stops, I said you may need to tweak the F#s. By a meter, the compromise is to have the F#s about 8 cents sharp of straight up for the B chord, which makes them 8 cents flat of where they should be for the F#m chord. In practice, it sounds better to me to have them a little closer to straight up for the B chord, and a little further for the F#m chord. In fact, you might just keep the F#s straight up for the B chord, and not adjust them for the F#m chord. Most people don’t use the BC combination much, and the worst that happens is that your F#m chord is a straight up equal temper (ET) chord. But there is a very simple way to avoid all these problems. On your C pedal, put a whole step raise on string 8. Now you can tune all the stops on the C pedal to the reference minor 3rd A on the B pedal. By the meter, you are keeping the A stop on the B pedal straight up, and tuning the root F#s (stops on strings 4 and Cool

and 5th (C# stop on string 5) 16 cents flat of straight up. In addition to giving you a pure sounding F#m chord, I love the sound of pulling both root F#s when I hit the BC combination. And your F#s on strings 1 and 7 can stay straight up for a good open string B chord, good E scale notes, and a good E9 chord.

Paul B., one of the very top studio steelers (another guy named Paul) once said that most producers prefer the steel to tune JI, and some even insist on it. Unfortunately he deleted that post because of another remark in it he decided was too personal. I suspect that if you “tamper” your 3rds, 6ths, and 7ths somewhere between JI and ET, most producers would find that acceptable, especially if that helps you play in tune with ET-tuned keyboards and guitars. Top steelers can center their chords so that a JI-tuned steel sounds fine with all other instruments. In addition to Paul’s comments, Jim Cohen once said that in a recording session with a piano, he tried tuning both ways, and the consensus in the studio was that the JI steel sounded better. But maybe not everyone can pull that off; so if tuning somewhere between JI and ET helps you play in tune with a group, then that’s the solution for you.

George R., it seems to be technically impossible to get all the cabinet drop out of many steels, even very good ones. I’ve had Emmons p/p, Sho-Bud Pro III, Fessenden, Carter, Zum and MSA Millennium, and they all had some cabinet drop. Also, I play an S12U, with 3 or 4 stops on every pedal, and some knees. These extra stops on the thick low strings add considerably to cabinet drop. However, all the above guitars had some cabinet drop even without the low pulls, although it was very slight on some. While some players insist they have zero cabinet drop, most manufacturers seem unable to eliminate it completely without some mechanical compensation of some kind. And they don’t offer such compensating mechanics on all their guitars. So maybe in theory cabinet drop shouldn’t exist, but in practice it often does.

And by the way, cabinet drop effects tuning by ear and JI, and tuning straight up ET by a meter. And the compromise I suggested above, of splitting the difference between the pedals up and down positions, minimizes cabinet drop problems for either tuning method.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 07 November 2006 at 07:14 AM.]

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