WHAT IF???

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

This thread is already being beat around in several topics but I would like to submit this.
What if you took the same source of wood, the same source of aluminum, the same pickups and the same strings and built three different guitars. Let's say a Zum, an Emmons and a Mullin and had them all put together to their respective specs, will they still sound like a Zum, an Emmons and a Mullin or will they sound alike.

I realize that alot of other things besides the material make up the sound of the guitar but I think that the material it's made from has the biggest part of the sound.
What do you all think??

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Nope, they'd sound different due to the design characteristics of the parts.

Scott Moon · From: Canyon Lake, TX

IMHO, No two of the same brand sound the same. I have had two Zums sitting side by side plugged into the same amp, same settings and both had a different sound. The same with Emmons Guitars. I believe this is the same with any instrument. Of course this is my opinion.

Scott

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Charlie Willcockson · From: Missouri, USA

I am new to pedal steel, but I have experienced exactly what Scott describes too many times with different instruments including different steels of same make for it to be accidental. This is one of the things I love about stringed instruments. Just my two cents.

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"Praise the LORD with harp: sing unto him with the psaltry and an instrument of ten strings"-Psalm 33:2

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

b0b, are you saying the DECAL on the front apron has no bearing on the sound whatsoever?

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Robert Leaman · From: Murphy, North Carolina, USA

When I put vinyl crutch tips on the two rear legs of my Sierra Session, it sounds like an Emmons Bolt-on push-pull. Then, when I remove those tips and place the bare legs on a carpeted floor, it sounds like a Sho-Bud. Usually, I have original Sierra tips installed on the rear legs and so it sounds like a Sierra Session. I prefer Sierra Session sound. If front leg tips are taken off and/or replaced with various types on the front legs, there is absolutely no change in the sound. I believe this proves that all the acoustic energy is transmitted only by the rear legs into the floor. The effect does not change for various floor types, concrete, wood, ceramic tile, carpet. etc. Since my PSG is gearless, this may possibly not be the same for obsolete, geared tuners.

Band members were astounded when I demonstrated this during one session.

I didn't add any smileys since everything that I said is as true as some of the other things that I read on the forum.

[This message was edited by Robert Leaman on 02 November 2006 at 11:35 AM.]

[This message was edited by Robert Leaman on 02 November 2006 at 11:36 AM.]

See the Honorable Pat Burns post for verification this post's information.

[This message was edited by Robert Leaman on 03 November 2006 at 09:54 AM.]

Bob Knight · From: Bowling Green KY

Robert,
You forgot to add the "smileys" to your post??

Pat Burns · From: Branchville, N.J. USA

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Jerry Roller · From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA

The players footwear certainly has a huge bearing on tone. The heavier the boot the more loadbearing on the pedal thus the more solid the contact of all components from the pedal all the way to the changer, thus heavier body contact. A "tighter tone cycle".
(signed) Buck

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

suppose you're recording with the nashville A team...if all the pickers are the same at the same studio playing the same song, would your steel sound different with carrie underwood singing than it would with kelly pickler?

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Herb asked:

Dave Seddon · From: Leicester, England.

I would imagine the only steels that would sound exactly the same would be the MSA Milleniums as they are made of the carbon stuff, providing the pickups are exactly the same. Could be wrong!!! Dave.

Pat Burns · From: Branchville, N.J. USA

...if that was true, Dave, the Millenium would sound exactly like a Stealth Fighter...

Roger Edgington · From: San Antonio, Texas USA

Now I'm concerned as my MSA classic lost it's decal and no longer knows what it supposed to sound like. At least it's black.

Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

If you tip the guitar forward a little, the notes will roll right off it at pretty high speed. This is much easier to accomplish than going after pick blocking. Check and fast player's guitar and you will see that they are using this technique.

Greg

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

Good one, Roger!! LOL!!!!

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

You guys are funny. But aside from the humor, most of you all agree that each guitar would have the same brand name sound no matter what wood the cabinet is made of.

I agree to this also, so it must be the way the under parts, changer and end plates are put on that gives each guitar its Emmons, Sho-Bud or whatever brand you try distinctive sound.

So, may next question is why. Lets face it, most modern all pull guitars are made practically the same. Maybe it is in the Logo on front of the guitar.

If you were in a semi dark room (light enough to see to play, barely) and I had put a Mullin guitar, black of course, with an Emmons logo on the front and of course, put a fake little tone and neck switch in the middle. Would you think that the guitar sounded like an Emmons or not. If I put a Sam's Cola in a coke bottle, I'll bet 99.9% couldn't tell the difference. Now, how about the steel guitars?

Please don't think that I'm saying all guitars sound alike. I'm not, but I am saying that the Logo on front does play a part in the sound.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Reece Anderson · From: Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.

I appreciate those of you who have mentioned MSA in this thread.

When we designed the new MSA in 2001, one of our highest priorities was consistency relative to sound, expansion and contraction.

After considerable research we determined that to attain our goal of consistency we had to choose carbon composite. The fact a carbon composite body neither recognizes temperature nor moisture variations, translates to the body not expanding or contracting.

Each piece of carbon composite is "exactly" like another, whereas each piece of wood has different density, grain and moisture content, all of which can create a reaction which manifests itself by expanding or contracting when subjected to changing temperatures and varying moisture levels. Wood continually expands and contracts, which can be verified by the screws on the underside becoming loose over a relatively short period of time.

In addition, as wood ages and the moisture is gradually depleted, it creates the propensity for tonal change, sometimes for the better, and sometimes the opposite. In either case, neither provides consistency. Carbon composite eliminates this completely, therefore provides consistency never before attainable.

Many prefer the traditional look of a wood guitar with beautiful grain which has a unique and one of a kind look which is not available in carbon composite. In addition, there are those who say wood has a sound characteristic not attainable with carbon composite. It is my belief that due to the varying characteristics of wood, each body has a slightly different tonal characteristic which in itself may be appealing to some.

Over the many years MSA has been in business, we have made it a priority to do our best to offer something for most every steel player’s personal taste, which is why today we offer both carbon composite and wood guitars.

In addition, MSA has went to great lengths to achieve a "retro-fit" concept on all MSA guitars made since 2001. Were we to contemplate the introduction of new models, our doing so would not represent a change of direction or philosophy, nor would we be introducing obsolescence to anyone owning an MSA or having one on order. MSA will always make a concerted effort in the design stage to maintain the possibility for existing guitars to be retrofitted to include newer features where there is a reasonable likelihood that current owners might wish to have any such features installed.

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

WHAT IF...the manufacturers of the various PSGs would publish data on the stability of their instrument re temperature et al. The issue is cents of tuning shift per string per degree of temperature change. This is not just a matter of body material, but of strings, bridge/nut/changer construction/attachment, and how the cross shafts are tied to each other, how the stops are made and located, and a bunch of other stuff is accomplished in the fabrication of the PSG.

There is not much one can do about the thermal expansion of the strings, therefor it would seem that the rest of the instrument should be made to track the strings thermal expansion characteristics.

The total (just about)absence of numerical data re the various instruments is an indication of where the industry is on the subject of design.

Some instruments have the nut screwed into the neck block which is then screwed into the body...others have it as an integral part of the keyhead, which is then screwed to the body....which way is best?...no measurements, no data, just verbosity.

Some instruments have been said to have a varying tone according to how tight the screws that attach the neck to the body are...does anyone torque the screws to a given value to assure some degree of consistency?

I realize that most of this does not mean a dang thing to the average picker, but it is what makes their instrument what it is and does. Lots more...including lamination's of all sorts in a variety of materials.

Reece Anderson · From: Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.

Ed P....I can only speak for MSA, but be assured we have done the research and accumulated numerical data which we consider unique and proprietary to our instrument.

In further response.....MSA has very specific torque settings which is critical and promotes consistency.

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

Reece A...Ok, i'm assured re MSA having "unique and proprietary" info/data.

Happy to hear that torque values are used.

How about some cents per degree values?

Reece Anderson · From: Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.

Ed P....You have email.

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