Duplicate Pulls and Diatonic Bass Srings

Fred Bova · From: Connecticut, USA

I am interested;

(1) How many of you duplicate your pulls on the lower strings ? E to F#, B to C #, etc.

(2) Why all the diatonic Bass strings if we can duplicate the pulls we use on the top strings on the lower strings ? Are these just left over from straight steel ?

[This message was edited by Fred Bova on 05 November 2006 at 06:33 PM.]

Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.



   LKR  LKV  LKR  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8   RKL  RKL2  RKR 





F#___________________________________________________+G/G#


D#________________________________________-D/C#______+E


G#__________________+A


E__+F________+Eb_______+F#


B______-Bb/A_____+C#___+C#_-A


G#__________________+A_____-F#_________________ -G/F#


F#_____________________________________________ -F__+G/G#


E__+F________+Eb_______+F#


D_________________________________________-C#


B______-Bb/A_____+C#_______-A

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

It's not the notes themselves, but the combination of those notes that gives us unique voicings, and close scales. The 6-9 (D-E-F#-G#) notes could be gotten on only two strings, sure, but having those 4 notes together gives all sorts of neat stuff.

Fred Bova · From: Connecticut, USA

Bobby, thanks for the copedent.
========================================
"It's not the notes themselves, but the combination of those notes that gives us unique voicings, and close scales. The 6-9 (D-E-F#-G#) notes could be gotten on only two strings, sure, but having those 4 notes together gives all sorts of neat stuff."

Neat suff, Like what ? No really, I am not being cheeky. When would I need to play these notes at the same time ? I am new to this, but I would prefer less strings and more notes. If I can go from ( B, to C#, to D ), ( or D#, to E, to F# ) on one string using pedals and /or Knee Levers, then I can pick once, pedal my way Up / Down as needed, and not have to worry about blocking and dissonance. We have added boat loads of Knee Levers so that we do not have to use the chromatic strings when it gets awkward. If this works so well, then why don't we do the same thing in the lower octive ? I do not use the chromatic strings on the top, I removed them. I start with a G# as my 1st string, and have set up my pedals and Knee Levers so that I do not need the top chromatic strings. Why not duplicate these upper changes on the lower octive strings ? What would I lose if I did this ? Again, I am new to this, I do not have the overview that most of you have. Help me fill in the blanks.
Fred

[This message was edited by Fred Bova on 05 November 2006 at 10:16 PM.]

[This message was edited by Fred Bova on 05 November 2006 at 10:19 PM.]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Activating a pedal or lever is much slower than picking a different string. 5 strings per octave is the optimum for fast steel playing.

As for removing the top two strings, you're missing a lot of slow country licks without them, too. Maybe that doesn't matter to you.

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Fred Bova · From: Connecticut, USA

Anyone else have a comment on this ?

David Doggett · Posted 9 Nov 2006 9:49 am

Here's a current thread on what you are missing without the top two "chromatic" strings: http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/013814.html.

Those of us who play a 12-string universal have replaced the D string with a lever and are quite happy. But I wouldn't want to do without the F# string. I'm not good at tab, but someone should tab out a scale for you beginning on the low E string and using the F#, other open strings, the pedals, and the 2nd string D#. There is no other way to get that speed or that sound. Also, the F# string gives you the 6th for the A chord with the pedals down. You couldn't get that same thick chord by changing one of the other strings to the 6th with a pedal or lever. In short, the extra strings are useful for scales and chords that wouldn't be the same without them.

Having said that, it is true that the current E9 and C6 tunings were originally no-pedal tunings that had pedals and levers and extra strings grafted onto them. The original players who added the pedals and extra strings were use to these tunings and so were more comfortable working with them. But if someone was going to start from scratch, and invent the best tuning for a pedal steel for their style and musical preferences, that might not look exactly like the standard tunings we now have. If you want to do that, you are in uncharted territory. b0b has written about a diatonic tuning he experimented with. As I remember, he mostly abandoned it, because he realized it is easier to play harmony and chords with a chord based tuning. The standard tunings we now have are a combination of the original pure chord tunings plus extra diatonic and chromatic strings (the D is a true chromatic string). They evolved that way, and other stuff that was tried did not stand the test of time. I'm thinking if you start again from scratch, you might end up with something different here and there, but a lot of it would be the same, simply because it's the same music theory and chord progressions you are working with.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 09 November 2006 at 09:52 AM.]

Marc Friedland · From: Fort Collins, CO

Fred, You already know what I think, but I'll say it here anyway.
You're such a good musician you'll sound good with what ever instrument you practice on and play -- BUT Like I said in my other thread, I believe that if you continue to resist looking at this instrument horizontally, and then also take away the 1st and 2nd strings, and with your 3 pedals and only 1 knee lever, obviously, you won't have as many choices and options as someone who has and uses more strings and changes. This fact doesn't make one person right and the other wrong.
There may be some things you hear other steel players play that you logistically won't be able to copy, but you'll still be able to play something very musically appropriate and tasteful, and sound very good doing it.

Again, I'm going to repeat myself -- call John McClung, and arrange to take about a half dozen lessons, practice as much as possible for the next 6 months, even if it means a little less time on The Steel Guitar Forum, and I'll bet you'll be able to answer some of these questions you now have, based on your own experience.

Your good friend always,
Marc

John McClung · From: Olympia WA, USA

Marc, thanks for the endorsement!

Fred, Bobby Lee is right, those close intervals are extremely helpful in playing brisk scales. One reason I can't bear to switch to a universal is I love the close intervals of the D note to E to F# to G#, very handy for scales and chords.

You're welcome to contact me about lessons, just know that I'm currently full up and have a small waiting list (thanks, in part, to many kind endorsements here on the forum from students and former students).

I have the 8th string raise to F# on pedal C, but usually dial it out because of pedal stiffness. Very nice change, though, Rick Schmidt has it and showed me some amazing chords using it.

Bobby Boggs, I really like your copedent. Do you find the dual RKL kl's reasonably easy to use? Do you have a mechanical half stop for the dual F# strings raising to G, then G#? And how useful is raising string 7 to G/G#, what are you using that for?

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Fred Bova · From: Connecticut, USA

Thanks everyone for your input. I should say here that I am not the least bit interested in speed. I have played professional lead guitar for many,many years. I can play fast, but seldom do. The better I get, the less notes I play. Once, after playing my set at a Blues Festival in CT I had the honor of having Muddy Waters tell me face to face that I was an "Excelent guitar player!, Excelent guitar player!",while he smiled and placed both thumbs up. He did not say anything about how fast or slow I played. Listen to Jimmy Day play Farewell Party. Listen to his movement, fantastic ! I never heard anyone say," it's too bad he did not play it faster." After seeing another musician machine gun off a flurry of notes someone once said" Wow, I wish I could play that fast,...and if I could... I wouldn't"

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Fred,

If the pedal moves are duplicated in both octaves you eliminate quite a few important chord voicings and take away many possibilities of counterpoint. The way you can move individual notes within chords is one of the truely unique aspects of the pedalsteel. You degrade that musical function if all your chord tones march around together.

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Bob
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