The Steel Guitar Forum

Can somebody tell me if 24 1/4" scale length is common for PSG? Which guitar makers use this size scale? I know Willams Guitars do. Any others? Thanks, Don

Yes!!! Zumsteel, Emmmons, Mullen,Fessenden To name a few.

Don, that is good news for you because that fret board with ths atoms on it that you like will fit on yer new Williams. Totally molecular dude!

My Excel Superb has a 24 1/4" scale.

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Sho~Buds are 24" along with the Sho~Bud on

steroids, the Fulawka. <font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Erv Niehaus on 15 September 2006 at 01:48 PM.]</p></FONT>

Who cares Don...just play the thing.
Kirk

Derby is 24 1/4" scale

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D10 Mahogany Laquer Derby,SD10 Black Laquer Derby,ShoBud LDG, Peavy Session 2000,NV112, Transtubefex

Yeah, you right Kirk!

Is sustain better on short, or long scale? Or is it just opinion?

BF

I believe it is opinion. My 25 inch scale keyless Pedalmaster sustains for days.

IMHO, of course.

I've always felt that the longer the string the longer the sustain. That is why I've always preferred the Stringmasters with the 26" scale.

However, when you go to pedal steels there is another thing to consider. It being string breakage. I believe that I read somewhere that when Buddy Emmons and Shot Jackson split company and work began on the Emmons guitar there was some experimentation done on string length. It was determined that 24 1/4" was the maximum string length that would still give you good tone and minimize string breakage.

You need to remember that with a keyed guitar, when you are stretching a sting you are also stretching that portion of the string beyond the roller nut.

Longer scale lengths are successful on keyless guitars because you are eliminating the extra string beyond the nut.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>However, when you go to pedal steels there is another thing to consider. It being string breakage. I believe that I read somewhere that when Buddy Emmons and Shot Jackson split company and work began on the Emmons guitar there was some experimentation done on string length. It was determined that 24 1/4" was the maximum string length that would still give you good tone and minimize string breakage.

You need to remember that with a keyed guitar, when you are stretching a sting you are also stretching that portion of the string beyond the roller nut.

Longer scale lengths are successful on keyless guitars because you are eliminating the extra string beyond the nut.
</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Erv, you're my kind of thinker. I agree totally.
<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 21 September 2006 at 09:09 AM.]</p></FONT>

It seems like 24 1/4" is the most common scale length for pedal steels. My Sho-Bud Pro III, Emmons p/p, Zum and Fessy were all 24 1/4". My Carter is 24".

<SMALL>Is sustain better on short, or long scale? Or is it just opinion?</SMALL>

When considering tone and sustain, you have to consider not only the scale length, but also the string gauge and tension. If the string gauge remains the same, and the pitch remains the same, then a longer scale requires more tension. Higher tension provides louder tone, richer overtones, and longer sustain up until just before the break point.

But tension is limited by the breakage problem. If tension is already optimal for the pitch, then you can use a longer scale at the same tension and pitch by using a lighter gauge string. For a given pitch and tension, a thinner longer string gives richer ovetones and longer sustain than a shorter thicker string. You can demonstrate this easily. Put your bar at some fret, say the 3rd fret, and play a note. Then put your bar on the next lower string and move it up to the appropriate fret to give the same note. The thicker string has a duller tone with less sustain. This is why 7' concert grand pianos have better tone and sustain than 5' baby grands.

So, for a given pitch, a longer scale can improve tone and sustain either by raising the tension while maintaining the same gauge, or by using a smaller gauge while maintaining the same tension, or by a combination of the two (higher tension and smaller gauge).

Erv brought up a related issue about keyless heads. When the changer pulls a string for a raise, it stretches. The extra string between the nut and key (call it the overhang) also must be stretched. That extra stretch requires more rotation of the changer finger, and results in increased breakage at the changer. The short overhang of a keyless requires less stretching, less changer rotation, and results in less breakage. Because of this less breakage, keyless guitars can use a longer neck with higher tension, theoretically resulting in louder tone and longer sustain. But some people claim there is less sustain with some keyless guitars; so there may be other factors at work.

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<font size="1">Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards

Nice comments Erv! Makes sense to me.



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Dave Wren
'96 Carter S12-E9/B6,7X7; NV 112; Fender Twin Custom 15 ('65 reissue); Session 500s; Hilton Pedal; Black Box
www.ameechapman.com

David, I did not realize that the Carter scale length was 24". I assumed it was 24 1/4
You learn something new everyday!

Well, I don't know about all Carters. But before I wrote that, I measured all my guitars and was surprised to see my Carter D12 come out at 24" even. Of course, a quarter of an inch is not that much difference.

Don, did you get a Williams? I thought you were getting an Excel. Could be wrong inference from the next post after yours here, but what's the scoop? Still have your Kline?

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E9 lessons
Mullen D-12/Carter SD-10/Webb amp/Profex II+Lexicon MPX-110 OR Line 6 Pod XT

John, Hi brother. Yes, I did get a Williams S12 and I love it so far. I ordered an Excel but there was a mix up in the ordering process and I ended up getting a Williams instead (long story). Yes, I still have my two Klines but one of them might be coming up for sale soon. The reason I asked about the 24 1/4 scale is because I might want to change the fret board on this Williams. The design is nice looking but a little too busy for me. I've been playing Klines for 27 years and the Williams fret board is so different it confuses me a little. I love the Emmons fret board and the Kline. I don't think its too difficult to change fret boards is it? I might just try to get used to this Williams fret board. Who knows?

With respect to string length and sustain, my Sierra Session D10 has a full 25 inch string length and magnificent sustain. It DOES NOT break strings including E9th 3rd G#. Of course, there is little more than 1/4 inch of string from the graduated roller nut to the gearless tuner.

I have no idea about whether or not a geared guitar can support a 25" scale. Many years ago, I worked for Bethlehem Steel and designed motor drive control systems for wire drawing machines. I learned something about high carbon steel wire and its properties. There is a absolute limit to constant tension applied to a specific gauge wire strand. In the case of music wire, this limit applies whether or not the wire (string) has a spiral wrap. There is a website (http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lo ... strmpl.htm) that talks about this. I know that one of the string companies has a website that shows string tension for various gauges tuned to various notes. I saw music wire drawn to as small as 0.001" and we made a stainless steel wire that is silver plated and is used to connect pacemakers to lazy hearts. Such a wire causes problems when it breaks.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Robert Leaman on 28 September 2006 at 03:01 PM.]</p></FONT>

Here is link for an interesting chart: http://www.daddario.com/Resources/JDCDAD/images/tension_chart.pdf
<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Robert Leaman on 28 September 2006 at 04:23 PM.]</p></FONT>

Robert, do you think that a keyed guitar can have a 25" scale? If not, then why not? I have often wondered why a person has to have a keyless guitar to get a 25" scale.

Curt
A keyed guitar can have a 25" scale, but the scale length just can't support a .011 string tuned to G# and being raised to A. At least by current technologies.

My Bigsby has a 25" scale, but I tune it to D9 tuning. And I use regular E9 string guages. It works fine thataway, and without string rollers at the nut.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Thanks Herb, for your time and input. So, if I am reading correctly, a guitar can have a 25" scale, but it must be either keyless, or tuned down to D9th. If a keyed guitar had a 25" scale, tuned to E9th, the G# string would not hold up. Why is this? In other posts many have stated that the way the string is anchored to the tuning device (either keyed or keyless) does not matter. It is the scale length that matters. How does the string behind the roller nut come into the equation? Does it matter? If so, WHY does it matter? How does tension on the G# string, scale length, and string length behind the nut correlate? Would the complete length of the string matter? If so, why would it matter?
Thanks for any and all input.

<B>BTW, this is not meant to be a key vs. keyless issue.
My questions pertain to scale length, string breakage, and string overhang.</B>

Also, my 25" keyless Pedalmaster does not break strings any more than my 24" inch scale Carter. Could the reason my Carter has a 24" scale length be to reduce string breakage, by reducing overall string length? Does the 1/4" shorter overall string length,(from bridge to tuning device) have an effect an string breakage? (as opposed to the overall length on a 24 1/4 scale guitar) Could 1/4" make a difference?
Thanks again to all who have input.

Speaking of my Pedalmaster, here she is now!



Click on a pic!
<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 29 September 2006 at 03:14 PM.]</p></FONT>

The shorter the string length from anchor to anchor,the less it stretches when pulled up with a pedal and the less it stretches,the less extra travel is needed to raise the pitch to the desired degree. A 25 inch keyless has less string length measured anchor to anchor than a 25 inch keyed guitar so the string on the keyed guitar would have to be pulled further to get up to pitch - thus exceeding the tensile strength of the string. This is really only an issue with the 3rd string on an E9 tuning. All the other strings fall mostly on the safe side of that equation regardless of the scale or keyed/keyless issues. Keyless is by far the better way to build a pedal steel for that and a myriad of other reasons of course. Just had to get that in.... Another factor is the much overlooked design flaw of most pedal steels and that is the rotating cam on the changer axel. If you bend a steel wire back and forth enough times - especially under great tension - it will break. Duh...
To my knowledge only Anapeg and Excel have addressed this institutionalized design shortcoming and gone to a linear pulling changer - virtually eliminating string breakage even on 25.5" scales.

<SMALL>A 25 inch keyless has less string length measured anchor to anchor than a 25 inch keyed guitar so the string on the keyed guitar would have to be pulled further to get up to pitch - thus exceeding the tensile strength of the string.</SMALL>

Interesting.... So, does less overall string length from anchor to anchor=less stretching needed, and therefore less tension on the G# string when pulled up to an A? Resulting in less string breakage? (Whether it be keyed or keyless)

Could this be the reason that you don't see any keyed 25" scale guitars?

Thanks for the input Michael. This is good.

Anyone else? <font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 29 September 2006 at 03:06 PM.]</p></FONT>

Curt we went through this awhile back and you finally saw that for a given gauge (say 0.011) and pitch (say A) the tension required will be dependent only on the scale length, not the overhang. A 25" scale will require more tension than a 24 1/4" scale. If both scales are 25", then the same tension will be required to pull to A. The length of overhang is irrelevant to tension. This is an indisputable fact of physics. Since the tension is actually greater on the keyless guitars with 25" scale than on the keyed 24 1/4" scale, why does the 25" keyless not have more breakage? The only answer we could come up with is that because of the shorter overhang, there is less stretch required for the pull to A. This means there is less rotation of the changer finger. That causes less flexing of the string over the changer, and apparently reduces the breakage. I don't have an opinion on keyless versus keyed. I have never tried a keyless. The word is that they have less sustain on the upper frets, but that might just be a myth.